A case for cable matching

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
So folks here, including myself, have surmised we may be hearing phase issues when inserting an "articulating" MIT cable into the system, or when switching between articulation modes (SD, HD, SHD) on the speaker cables, regardless of what interconnects are used upstream (including MIT).

The thought, then, is that, since the articulation technology appears to be based on phase corrections between current and voltage at various frequencies (optimal at -90 degrees, or Power Factor=0), then given two cables that might have mirroring phase characteristics at frequency A - where in fact they would probably correct each other - stand to have that synergy broken by replacing one of them with a phase-correcting MIT, by exposing the other cable's phase deficiency at that frequency; ditto elsewhere in the spectrum, for perhaps a more profound effect. Notice, current/voltage phase need not necessarily translate to phase relationships between frequencies.This could also happen by replacing all cables with MIT products that are not carefully selected.

My own experience has been that the HD setting in my HD90.1 speaker cables kinda sounded "phasey" when it was the only "articulating" cable in the chain, but wasn't sure; they no longer do, and I have recently settled on HD. But frankly, since then, I have gone all-MIT, with 50ic as the interconnects - a matched system. Those who hear "phase" issues when switching between modes on the speaker cables, might in fact be right, in that only one setting would be theoretically fully compatible with the interconnects in the system. This, then, leads to system matching down to the cable level (of any one brand), where otherwise random cable selections stand to offer unpredictable results - a conclusion that some (a lot?) of you have reached long ago. From my perspective, I wanted to somehow quantify it.

Perhaps mixing and matching some brands is OK, but it would appear MIT would not play well in a heterogeneous system. Then there is the entirely different question of whether their network technology works at all with the signal-amplifying equipment in the chain...

A potential consequence of this for Spectral owners is that, once you buy the speaker and interconnecting cables for the amp(s), you probably have to go all-MIT to get the most accurate sound. My own experience certainly confirms that, and the improvement in articulation, dynamic headroom and especially timbre is remarkable.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
I can say that the MA-X SHD speaker cable sounded fine and was my favorite setting in SHD mode even with Nordost Valhalla and now Odin upstream. The MIT are now on the side lines as Odin has supplanted them for the speakers. I am keeping the SHD and plan to go back to them in a month to see how they compare again with Odin. It comes down to there is no perfect speaker cable. I think the MIT might be a touch more clearly defined in the deep bass, where as Odin seems to excel in the treble and blooming soundstage areas...MIT being a bit darker in my system. I never heard the phase issue others have mentioned with different MIT models.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
will be interesting when I [hopefully] put all TA throughout my system which has been all TA Ref MM/XL (MM2) except for one IC (preamp-amp) which is a different brand for a few years now because I have not found (until recently) a 2nd hand TA Ref MM (MM2) cable that is properly calibrated. fingers crossed on this one...will update.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
Ack, that is an interesting post. I certainly don't understand the science/technology behind this stuff, but I would appreciate some explanation in layman's terms about why I heard an effect when switching between the different settings on a pair of MA-X SHD in an all-MIT system. That effect sounded to me like a shift in phase. And the dealer actually told me that the different settings to effect the perception of space. The sound became more spacious but much more diffuse and lost much of its image focus. The size of instruments and voices also changed. I did not like the effect and preferred the lower settings (fewer poles of articulation).

I also had a negative experience when I auditioned a pair of MIT Matrix speaker cables in my system and perhaps it was, as you suggest, a poor match with my Harmonic Technology cables that were in the rest of the system. Unfortunately, I could not audition an entire suite of matched MIT cables. In my system, there was also an effect that sounded like a phase issue when I switched between the SD and HD settings, but there was also a tonal shift away from the midrange and toward the upper and lower frequencies which made the system sound much less neutral.

I have heard systems with all-MIT cables sound outrageously good on two occasions and often refer to those two sessions as a kind of reference for me. With the many people who really like the MIT products, I'm convinced they are a very high quality product with a lot of R & D behind them. You may be on to something with this cable-matching theory. Have you contacted MIT to discuss this?
 

Frank750

VIP/Donor
Jul 8, 2011
821
1
928
I can say that the MA-X SHD speaker cable sounded fine and was my favorite setting in SHD mode even with Nordost Valhalla and now Odin upstream. The MIT are now on the side lines as Odin has supplanted them for the speakers. I am keeping the SHD and plan to go back to them in a month to see how they compare again with Odin. It comes down to there is no perfect speaker cable. I think the MIT might be a touch more clearly defined in the deep bass, where as Odin seems to excel in the treble and blooming soundstage areas...MIT being a bit darker in my system. I never heard the phase issue others have mentioned with different MIT models.

Christian, in all fairness, you've never had MIT ICs in your system with the MA-X SHD speaker cable. It makes a very big difference. When I first got the MIT speaker cable I was using Kubala Sosna Elation ICs. My system sounded very good and I purchased the MIT to play with the Elation. But, when I put the MA-X SHD ICs in, performance was taken to another level.

And I have no idea what Peter is referring to regarding phase issues, I've never heard it in any way.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Ack, that is an interesting post. I certainly don't understand the science/technology behind this stuff, but I would appreciate some explanation in layman's terms about why I heard an effect when switching between the different settings on a pair of MA-X SHD in an all-MIT system. That effect sounded to me like a shift in phase. And the dealer actually told me that the different settings to effect the perception of space. The sound became more spacious but much more diffuse and lost much of its image focus. The size of instruments and voices also changed. I did not like the effect and preferred the lower settings (fewer poles of articulation).

I also had a negative experience when I auditioned a pair of MIT Matrix speaker cables in my system and perhaps it was, as you suggest, a poor match with my Harmonic Technology cables that were in the rest of the system. Unfortunately, I could not audition an entire suite of matched MIT cables. In my system, there was also an effect that sounded like a phase issue when I switched between the SD and HD settings, but there was also a tonal shift away from the midrange and toward the upper and lower frequencies which made the system sound much less neutral.

I have heard systems with all-MIT cables sound outrageously good on two occasions and often refer to those two sessions as a kind of reference for me. With the many people who really like the MIT products, I'm convinced they are a very high quality product with a lot of R & D behind them. You may be on to something with this cable-matching theory. Have you contacted MIT to discuss this?

Frank would be more appropriate to tell us what he hears when selecting between modes in his more resolving system and speaker cables (and also, how things change when switching between modes on the interconnects themselves); the only thing I can tell you is that I now hear exactly what MIT says, between SD and HD - ever so slightly better transients: By selecting HD and engaging F.A.T., one hears lifelike transients and improved detail within the octaves of complex music.

I have never heard the tonal balance issues you mention. Also, I intentionally did not mention the MA-X digital (which does not affects things), and the MA-X phono, which appears to be on par with the 50ic and very compatible.
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,126
651
1,200
Alto, NM
It would seem, from a logical and anecdotal perspective, that one should have the same brand of cables for their entire system, excluding (perhaps) power cords.

This approach would seem to mitigate and / or eliminate any "design / voicing / performance" issues between different cable brands.

I will never be able to afford the top MIT, KS, or TA cabling since the price to do so would likely equal or exceed the entire cost of my system. :eek:

However, if one can apparently adjust the voicing / performance characteristics of the speaker cable via "articulation" settings, it would seem that this would be counter productive to maintaining the same sonic signature / design approach - criteria / technical performance using one exclusive manufacturer for all cables.

Flawed logic?

FWIW, I use DH Labs because it sounds great to my feeble ears and has, IMHO, a very high price point / performance ratio. And I can afford it.

GG
 

Frank750

VIP/Donor
Jul 8, 2011
821
1
928
Frank would be more appropriate to tell us what he hears when selecting between modes in his more resolving system and speaker cables (and also, how things change when switching between modes on the interconnects themselves); the only thing I can tell you is that I now hear exactly what MIT says, between SD and HD - ever so slightly better transients: By selecting HD and engaging F.A.T., one hears lifelike transients and improved detail within the octaves of complex music.

I have never heard the tonal balance issues you mention. Also, I intentionally did not mention the MA-X digital (which does not affects things), and the MA-X phono, which appears to be on par with the 50ic and very compatible.

For the speaker cable, going through the SD, HD and SHD settings, at least to me, is all about resolution and transparency. As you go up the scale you can hear veils that you didn't realize were even there being lifted. You can hear deeper into the soundstage with more detail and clarity. Once on SHD, I for all intents and purposes haven't gone back. The Low and High Frequency Articulation Knobs on the front of the module seem to increase resolution but also act as tone controls. I prefer to leave them both in the center setting. Same with the Articulation settings on the ICs, when I turn them up or down, and I haven't played with them very much, it's sounds like turning a treble control up and down. They don't seem all that useful to me as I leave them in the center as well. Perhaps they would be better served in a system different from mine. This may be where Peter is hearing perceived tonal balance issues. Much more useful on the ICs is the impedance matching switch.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
And I have no idea what Peter is referring to regarding phase issues, I've never heard it in any way.

Frank, I am not suggesting that you have heard it. I'm not saying that there is a phase issue per se, I'm saying that what I heard with the MA-X SHD speaker cables in an all MIT system SOUNDED LIKE a shift in phase. That spacial manipulation effect that I noticed was similar to what I've heard when speakers are hooked up out of phase. My dealer actually told me he heard the same thing and preferred the lower setting. Perhaps he was just trying to be agreeable with a potential customer, but in my case (which admittedly may be quite unique and not witnessed by any other MIT users) is that this is the effect that I heard, both at the dealer with the top of the line and to a lesser extent in my own system with only the Matrix 90 speaker cables unmatched to the rest of the cables in my system at the time.

I thought this is what ACK was referring to as a potential explanation. I don't see why my comment is controversial. It seems to be consistent with what ACK is suggesting in post #1. Again, I did not hear this in two other demos with all-MIT cables of Matrix level. Those demos were outstanding as I mentioned before and led me to want to audition the cables in my own system.

I would like to know what MIT thinks of Ack's comments in post #1 of this thread.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
The Low and High Frequency Articulation Knobs on the front of the module seem to increase resolution but also act as tone controls. I prefer to leave them both in the center setting. Same with the Articulation settings on the ICs, when I turn them up or down, and I haven't played with them very much, it's sounds like turning a treble control up and down. They don't seem all that useful to me as I leave them in the center as well. Perhaps they would be better served in a system different from mine. This may be where Peter is hearing perceived tonal balance issues. Much more useful on the ICs is the impedance matching switch.

I can't remember at this point if the Matrix 90 speaker cables I tried had these Articulation Knobs or tone controls. I just remember a SD and HD setting switch on the top of network box. Perhaps ACK can clarify this. The tonal balance to which I referred was with both SD and HD settings and only relative to my other speaker cables which in comparison to the MIT Matrix had a more balanced or less recessed midrange relative to the highs and lows. But again, this was only in my system context with a different brand of ICs. I did not hear this same tonal balance in the other two auditions with the MIT Matrix. In those systems, the tonal balance was neutral and the sound was superb. This is a case of system context only, IMO.

Coincidentally, an MIT owner described my Transparent cables as "tone controls" to me the other day and they have none of the dials or USER ADJUSTMENTS that the MITs have. He told me that is why he enjoyed the forward and realistic presentation of small ensembles in my system. Interestingly, people do often refer to cables as "tone controls", but this is the first time that I have noticed someone referring to actual dials on a cable "acting as tone controls." Is MIT the only brand that has such dials?

If you leave the Articulation settings in the center, are they actually defeated, or is the signal still going through the switch/dial? Does this effect the purity of the signal like some tone controls do? I would think that if the cable is more complex or adjustable, transparency would be effected.

Could you elaborate about the importance of the impedance matching switch? This is one of the features of my cables that people report as being critical to the quality of the sound, but few other cable manufacturers do this matching. I've heard one argument that if you use the electronic components of one brand, then it is not that useful to have to match the impedances through the cables because the components are already designed to work well together. I'd like to learn more about this.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
The MA-X SHD is the only speaker cable with these knobs that Frank describes as tone controls, in addition to being the only one with impedance matching (in the MIT line-up), and not the only one with articulation-selection switches; that, to me, is a Frankenstein cable. The 90.1 has just the SD/HD switch on the front, while the 120SHD has it on the top - I suspect this is the model you are talking about. Some of the interconnects have impedance-matching range switches, and some higher ones articulation-selection as well (starting with the MA*). I have never heard tonal balance issues with any MIT speaker cables, with or without MIT interconnects elsewhere. You are the only one I know who has made those claims.
 
Last edited:

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
The MA-X SHD is the only speaker cable with these knobs that Frank describes as tone controls, in addition to being the only one with impedance matching (in the MIT line-up), and not the only one with articulation-selection switches; that, to me, is a Frankenstein cable. The 90.1 has just the SD/HD switch on the front, while the 120SHD has it on the top - I suspect this is the model you are talking about. Some of the interconnects have impedance-matching range switches, plus articulation-selection. I have never heard tonal balance issues with any MIT speaker cables, with or without MIT interconnects elsewhere. You are the only one I know who has made those claims.

The use of the words "tone controls" can be misleading, as they are usually used in a sense of providing very noticeable changes in frequency response (a few dBs), something that cables or mix-and-matching equipment does not usually provide.

MIT refers to "poles of articulation" or "articulation poles" in their literature, and refer that their number is an important aspect in their cables. I have no experience with the MA-X-SHD but can expect that the key aspect is the exact frequency and exact magnitude of each pole - and here psychoacoustics and knowledge of sound reproduction systems and rooms must play an important aspect. These cables must enhance the aspects that help the perception of key aspects of the reproduction in the listener illusion of a real performance, simultaneously masking the errors associated to the reproduction process.

Although I have no experience with MIT, I own Transparent Audio Opus and know their significant subjective effect in bass reproduction, when associated with the matching ICs. But I can assure you there is no significantly measurable difference in bass frequency response compared to a thick copper cable - I have checked it. ;)
 

Frank750

VIP/Donor
Jul 8, 2011
821
1
928
I used tone control for lack of a better actual description. As I turn the control to the positive side, you can actually hear more resolution but, it also sounds, at least to me, as if you're turning up a treble control. Turning it to the negative side of zero has the opposite effect. The zero setting does not defeat the control, it's just the middle setting on the scale.

As for the impedance settings, there are three settings on the SHD ICs and if I recall correctly, they are Low 5-50k ohms,
Medium 40-100k ohms and High over 90k ohms. You set the switch to maximize input impedance for each component. For example, the Xs preamp is 42k so it falls into both the low and medium settings. I've tried both and prefer the low setting. The components going into the Xs are all set on low. The input on the Xs 300s is 200k so the IC from the Xs pre to the amps is set on high.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
The MA-X SHD is the only speaker cable with these knobs that Frank describes as tone controls, in addition to being the only one with impedance matching (in the MIT line-up), and not the only one with articulation-selection switches; that, to me, is a Frankenstein cable. The 90.1 has just the SD/HD switch on the front, while the 120SHD has it on the top - I suspect this is the model you are talking about. Some of the interconnects have impedance-matching range switches, and some higher ones articulation-selection as well (starting with the MA*). I have never heard tonal balance issues with any MIT speaker cables, with or without MIT interconnects elsewhere. You are the only one I know who has made those claims.

Hello Ack, I think the switches were in the front as you describe and I also seem to remember that it was the Matrix 90 speaker cables that I had in my system for evaluation.

The only claim I am making is that in my system, in my room, in my opinion only, I heard a different tonal balance in the presentation between my Harmonic Technology speaker cables and the MIT speaker cables. The MIT cable did some things better than the HT cable and visa versa. The MIT also had a different tonal balance than the Transparent cable I tried later. I would not describe it as a "tonal balance issue" per se, I just did not prefer it in my system as I found the midrange slightly recessed relative to the highs and lows. This was my impression during the listening trial.

I think you attempted to explain a potential reason for this in your post #1 which begins this thread. Perhaps my experience may be consistent with your hypothesis. Perhaps the poles of articulation and the attempts at phase control in these cables effects both phase and tonal balance, or it may not. You pose an interesting question. It would be nice to read what MIT thinks about your ideas in that post.

I think this is a case of personal preference and system dependence, nothing more. That same MIT Matrix 90 speaker cable sounds great in your system and in the system I heard it in at Goodwins. It just didn't sound the same in my system which has very different components.

In this thread:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?13513-Nordost-or-Transparent/page11
I did make an overly general comment comparing MIT to Transparent and was asked about it by Rockitman. I explained my comments later in the thread by referencing the specific cables to which those general comments applied. I apologize if that came across to you as a specific claim that all MIT speaker cables have "tonal balance issues." I did not intend to imply that, nor do I think that. The comments were meant to reflect my listening observations in my system with two specific speaker cables only. Sorry for the implication and confusion that has resulted from my casual comment. I have attempted to clarify it.
 
Last edited:

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
Christian, in all fairness, you've never had MIT ICs in your system with the MA-X SHD speaker cable. It makes a very big difference. When I first got the MIT speaker cable I was using Kubala Sosna Elation ICs. My system sounded very good and I purchased the MIT to play with the Elation. But, when I put the MA-X SHD ICs in, performance was taken to another level.

And I have no idea what Peter is referring to regarding phase issues, I've never heard it in any way.

Frank,

I don't think I am being critical of MIT. Point taken on the advantage of having a complete MIT system, similar to my complete Odin system. As I said, I will be putting MIT back in down the road to see how they compare after a few months of Odin. Personally, without ever hearing Valhalla 2, it sounds like the cables you heard were rather new and probably not broken in all the way. I have had Odin speaker cable in for 3 weeks now(They were not new...a year old). Last night they really came to life. IMHO, it takes weeks to evaluate top end cables to fully understand their impact on system performance. I am glad MIT fixed your speaker cable issue. At this level, no one want's to second guess their huge financial commitment with cables of a particular brand. Whether the cables are MIT, Nordost, Transparent or Siltech ... I don't think with any of those choices you can go wrong.
 

Frank750

VIP/Donor
Jul 8, 2011
821
1
928
Frank,

I don't think I am being critical of MIT. Point taken on the advantage of having a complete MIT system, similar to my complete Odin system. As I said, I will be putting MIT back in down the road to see how they compare after a few months of Odin. Personally, without ever hearing Valhalla 2, it sounds like the cables you heard were rather new and probably not broken in all the way. I have had Odin speaker cable in for 3 weeks now(They were not new...a year old). Last night they really came to life. IMHO, it takes weeks to evaluate top end cables to fully understand their impact on system performance. I am glad MIT fixed your speaker cable issue. At this level, no one want's to second guess their huge financial commitment with cables of a particular brand. Whether the cables are MIT, Nordost, Transparent or Siltech ... I don't think with any of those choices you can go wrong.

Didn't mean to infer you were being critical. I know you weren't.

I'm still thinking about trying Odin if my dealer can get me a demo set. He's going to let me know.
 
Last edited:

jap

Banned
Apr 6, 2012
542
1
0
I noticed that a number of people posting in this thread use Pass Labs gear.

A friend has XA 200.5 amps, I like the advise Pass Labs gives about cables in the owners manual:

"Interconnects and Speaker Cables

We have a general recommendation about interconnects, and speaker cables: They should cost less than the amplifier, and contain at least some conductive material. We have tried a lot of products and most work well, but as a practical matter we cannot make blanket recommendations.

The amplifier is not sensitive to source interconnects. It is also not sensitive to radio frequency pickup, which allows some flexibility in choosing source interconnects without shields, though shields are usually a very good idea. For long runs balanced cables are highly recommended for their inherent rejection of noise.

We prefer speaker cables that are short and stout. Oxygen-free copper and silver are the suggested materials. If you find any really exceptional cable made of gold, please gift us a couple hundred feet.

Fortunately this amplifier is not sensitive to the capacitive/inductive character of some of the specialty speaker cables, so feel free to experiment.

We have found that about 90 per cent of bad sounding cables are really bad sounding connections, and we recommend that attention be paid to cleanliness of electrical contact surfaces and proper connector fit.

Speaker cables should be firmly tightened down at the speaker output terminals, but not with a wrench. Output terminals will not withstand the levels of torque that may be easily applied by wrench. Hand tightening without excessive force is plenty. Cleaning contact surfaces with one of the commercially available electronic contact cleaners should be part of your annual system maintenance."
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,210
1,738
1,260
Alpharetta, Georgia
I rarely disagree with mastering engineer Steve Hoffman but we differed this week. It all boiled down to, in my opinion, two very different philosophies:

1. The "tone control" method which is use wire as tone controls to tweak the sound of the components helping them overcome their weaknesses. Steve seems to favor this.

2. A "neutrality" method which suggests if you find a really transparent cable then use it across the system (or at least interconnects and speaker cable) and take care of sound quality issues by buying very neutral components. This is my preferred path.

In terms of my experimenting with Audioquest, Kimber, Cardas, and Lectraline from Black Cat, I have found having the interconnects and speaker cable the same brand is the way to go.

I prefer, however, to have the better AC cord folks make the power cables, and tend to find some specialty phono cables are best.
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,210
1,738
1,260
Alpharetta, Georgia
I noticed that a number of people posting in this thread use Pass Labs gear.

A friend has XA 200.5 amps, I like the advise Pass Labs gives about cables in the owners manual:

"Interconnects and Speaker Cables

We have a general recommendation about interconnects, and speaker cables: They should cost less than the amplifier, and contain at least some conductive material. We have tried a lot of products and most work well, but as a practical matter we cannot make blanket recommendations.

The amplifier is not sensitive to source interconnects. It is also not sensitive to radio frequency pickup, which allows some flexibility in choosing source interconnects without shields, though shields are usually a very good idea. For long runs balanced cables are highly recommended for their inherent rejection of noise.

We prefer speaker cables that are short and stout. Oxygen-free copper and silver are the suggested materials. If you find any really exceptional cable made of gold, please gift us a couple hundred feet.

Fortunately this amplifier is not sensitive to the capacitive/inductive character of some of the specialty speaker cables, so feel free to experiment.

We have found that about 90 per cent of bad sounding cables are really bad sounding connections, and we recommend that attention be paid to cleanliness of electrical contact surfaces and proper connector fit.

Speaker cables should be firmly tightened down at the speaker output terminals, but not with a wrench. Output terminals will not withstand the levels of torque that may be easily applied by wrench. Hand tightening without excessive force is plenty. Cleaning contact surfaces with one of the commercially available electronic contact cleaners should be part of your annual system maintenance."

Love Nelson Pass but this is Luddite stuff. All amps are sensitive to interconnects and speaker cable.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Love Nelson Pass but this is Luddite stuff. All amps are sensitive to interconnects and speaker cable.

Lee,
I think his message is just - do not ask me about cables, try all those you want to and remember connectors need maintenance.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing