Extremely Long Article by John Curl

MylesBAstor · Aug 31, 2010

FrantzM said:
I will drop the issue after this post. I am interested in the opinions on this white paper/book/article... The man could design that much should be said ... He is not at the level of a Tim Paravicini or Nelson Pass in my book but he's up there .. so let's remain on topics.

but about the fine distinctions .. Mastering is not the same thing as copying. The etymologies of the words are quite different .. I' ll stop there we can always move this to another thread .. I am sure mep has some thoughts on the subject

Well I'd beg to differ Frantz since I've know John for probably close to 15 or 20 years now (since our days at Guy Hickey's TAN). John has the largest reference library of papers and books related to electronic design probably outside of a university. John has forgotten more than most know about electronic design and I'd put his resume up against anyone in the industry. Yes Tim and Nelson included. Sorry. He's worked for Ampex (remember Dave Wilson's Curl modded R2R deck that Dave used for recording and last I heard resides with Chad in KS?), did the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound", and designed gear marketed by Dennessen, Levinson, Lineage (his partnership with Saul Marantz, etc, that unfortunately never made it to market but would have been something in its day)Vendetta, Parasound, CTC and most recently Constellation Audio (the same people who designed the Continuum turntable).

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his ideas.

FrantzM · Aug 31, 2010

MylesBAstor said:
Well I'd beg to differ Frantz since I've know John for probably close to 15 or 20 years now (since our days at Guy Hickey's TAN). John has the largest reference library of papers and books related to electronic design probably outside of a university. John has forgotten more than most know about electronic design and I'd put his resume up against anyone in the industry. Yes Tim and Nelson included. Sorry. He's worked for Ampex (remember Dave Wilson's Curl modded R2R deck that Dave used for recording and last I heard resides with Chad in KS?), did the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound", and designed gear marketed by Dennessen, Levinson, Lineage (his partnership with Saul Marantz, etc, that unfortunately never made it to market but would have been something in its day)Vendetta, Parasound, CTC and most recently Constellation Audio (the same people who designed the Continuum turntable).

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his ideas.

I wouldn't reject his ideas en masse but let it be said that the Intellichip and the Shakti stones (microwave absorbers???????) are nonsenses so are the Brilliant Pebbles .. geniuses do err .. vide the great Einstein never really getting to espouse the Quantum View of Particles Physics ... I don't know him personally. Not privy to the Scions of High End but that changes nothing once it becomes public it has to be debated, dissected and often proven.. Yes he worked for Ampex and a good list of companies and that is very good and yes I admit he knows more than many, I called him an icon.. He did however err in many directions.. I will read his thing when I have the time ... So far I am not entirely convinced .. I must say ... peer reviews, Proper methodologies are to me important .. not so there. at least at first perusal

MylesBAstor · Aug 31, 2010

FrantzM said:
I wouldn't reject his ideas en masse but let it be said that the Intellichip and the Shakti stones (microwave absorbers???????) are nonsenses so are the Brilliant Pebbles .. geniuses do err .. vide the great Einstein never really getting to espouse the Quantum View of Particles Physics ... I have known him personally. Not privy to the Scions of High End but that changes nothing once it becomes public it has to be debated, dissected and often proven.. Yes he worked for Ampex and a good list of companies and that is very good and yes I admit he knows more than many, I called him an icon.. He did however err in many directions.. I will read his thing when I have the time ... So far I am not entirely convinced .. I must say ... peer reviews, Proper methodologies are to me important .. not so there. at least at first perusal

Even Michaelangelo ruined a few piece of marble.

I think that all three have made and continue to make real contributions in the field of both recording and playback.

Gregadd · Aug 31, 2010

Phelonious Ponk said:
OK. Under what subhead? He says quite a bit about distortion.

I do like this part:

Emphasis mine.

P

Page 14 Subsection- Distortion first two paragraphs.

Phelonious Ponk · Sep 1, 2010

Gregadd said:
Page 14 Subsection- Distortion first two paragraphs.

Yeah I read that part. He doesn't explain why, if they can make an amp with almost no distortion, one with more might be better. He only says it is so because he and the other designers he refers to hear it that way, and the rest of us don't get it. But in spite of that condescension, I agree in principle: Measurable distortion is not nearly as important as what sounds good, or is even what is audible.

P

ON EDIT: And mastering is definitely not the same thing as copying, either by definition or in practice. Did Curl say that? I can't imagine how someone who spent a couple of years at Ampex could not understand that very clear distinction.

DonH50 · Sep 1, 2010

Master vs. copy is a tangent; I doubt anybody here does not know the distinction. However, in common usage the words are blurred, at least with people to whom I have spoken.

I find his argument about distortion and what people like vs. what is right interesting but do not agree with it. I would rather the system reproduced the original as accurately as possible, then let me decide how I want to color ("colour" for friends across the pond) it at home.

Like when reading material by some other brilliant designers, I can disagree with them even though I am not likely to merit carrying their shoes (critics!) - Don

Gregadd · Sep 1, 2010

I find his argument about distortion and what people like vs. what is right interesting but do not agree with it. I would rather the system reproduced the original as accurately as possible, then let me decide how I want to color ("colour" for friends across the pond) it at home.

Don- I'm not sure he was advocating a position or reporting what goes on. I was delighted to learn that ss designers were caught using distortion to "tailor" thier sound. That is an accusation so often hurled at tube tube designers.

I agree with you on coloring it at home. I think it is time to produce some quality equalizers. Maybe even your own "distortion box."

Nicholas Bedworth · Sep 1, 2010

@myles... of course keep in mind that Michelangelo also turned a supposedly "ruined" block of Carrera marble into David, which commemorates David's intent to do battle with the Palestinians, Goliath in particular. Relations have been touchy ever since

.

JCs comments about various distortions in tape playback are instructive. Analog or digital, each has its share of gremlins. It's like Churchill's wisecrack that democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others. And musicians tend to be pretty tempermental as well. Take your pick.

DonH50 · Sep 1, 2010

Greggadd -- Makes sense, I probably read too quickly (and still haven't finished it yet!) I don't think tube designers do it intentionally; it's just intrinsic to the devices and designs. I do recall several attempts at lower distortion, lower Zout etc. tube amps that resulted in reviewers panning the products because they had lost "that tube sound". Probably the same ones discussing lack of accuracy in various SS amps...

As for color, I miss my old bass/mid/treble knobs and would be quite happy (after all the system cal/comp is done) to have three knobs on my AVR (or buttons on my remote) that just gave me those generic functions using the DSP. For now, my choice of coloring tools is Crayola...

- Don

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Extremely Long Article by John Curl

MylesBAstor

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FrantzM

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MylesBAstor

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Gregadd

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Phelonious Ponk

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DonH50

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Gregadd

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Nicholas Bedworth

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