Nordost or Transparent?

RichDavis said:

If I'm going to shell out thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars on cables, I think the least they can do is show some form of test measurements. At least MIT posts technical information that's VERY useful in understanding their technology, or at least some of their technology, I sure wish they would post articulation graphs on each cable and I know they can. But they do show measurements to compare one of their cables to a generic cable. Which is a start in the right direction.

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There is a measurement. It is called "free market economics". People who have the means to purchase high end cabling are not typically stupid or ignorant, in fact just the reverse. If they like the sonic results of what they are trying in their system on an audition, and they think those results worth the money being charged, then they will commit to a purchase of that cabling. If they don't they will look elsewhere. It is that simple! If a cable manufacturer expects to survive in this highly competitive area, they had better make sure that they put out a damned excellent and competitive product at every price level that they choose to compete.
There are many retailers of cables, both brick and mortar and internet, that offer auditions. Auditioning in the context of your system and in your room is the only way that you will know what is best for you and your sonic preferences. Like it or not, there is no ideal. Audio, like any high end art is a moving target to suit variable tastes. One must try before they buy.

RichDavis said:

Is there any ability for Transparent to discuss in technical details as to what and how the technology is able to produce a superior sound? Do you have freq response curves to post? The problem that many people have is obtaining more technical knowledge of why there is such a cost to cables, etc. and they will sound better, etc. It's obvious that the boxes do something along the lines of MIT, but where are the differences? Is there any response curves that can be compared? What measurements can the company post that will help the consumer? I think all cable mfg, need to step it up in terms of sharing technical knowledge rather than marketing prose. Any technical discussions, especially measurement tests to show useful information on how we can evaluate better sound quality would be great.

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Uhhhh...FR as a predictive factor in the sound went out in the early '60s. Just as flat FR for speaker. Or limited bandwidth. It's documented on the net.

RichDavis said:

If I'm going to shell out thousands, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars on cables, I think the least they can do is show some form of test measurements. At least MIT posts technical information that's VERY useful in understanding their technology, or at least some of their technology, I sure wish they would post articulation graphs on each cable and I know they can. But they do show measurements to compare one of their cables to a generic cable. Which is a start in the right direction.

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I had a set of MIT Matrix 90 speaker cables in my system for evaluation. I had read the marketing about poles of articulation. I could adjust a knob on the box for SD or HD settings. I talked to the dealer about the settings and technology. The funny thing is that I preferred the lowest setting. Same at the dealer with the super $50K speaker cables with the giant boxes in a super system with the Magico Q7, Spectral 400 amps and top tier digital. I told the dealer that I thought there was a very strange thing going on with phase and that the more poles of articulation, the less natural it sounded. The dealer agreed. My point is that I learned very little from the MIT data about how the cables would sound in a system. And it was unclear if any of these dials were an attempt to match impedances between components. Maybe that is on other MIT cables. The cables were fully broken in dealer demos. They did not have other MIT cables so I could not try an entire suite of cables in my system. I found the cables in my system to sound very phasey and tipped up in the highs, a bit boomy in the bass and a recessed mid range. The tonal balance was a bit like the shape of an hour glass.

By contrast, I demoed a full suite of Transparent REF XL cables, each configured precisely for the various components in my system. After two full weeks of break in, they allowed me to keep them for another two weeks for a proper evaluation and answered questions along the way. They told me the networks help to counteract the natural roll off at the frequency extremes thus extending the bass and treble frequencies for a smoother, more extended and even tonal balance. This matched what I heard. Rather than an hour glass shape, this tonal balance was like a long, smooth rectangle. Very natural and evenly balanced sound.

Both companies charge very high prices for their cables. I don't understand the technology in the networks nor do I understand the configuration of the strands of wires any more than I can follow the diagrams of Nelson Pass' amplifiers or the crossovers in my speakers. Perhaps others can read and understand some of these technical designs. I understand that some companies don't want to share their technology. I read the marketing, talk to fellow owners and to dealers and then I listen before I buy.

Though the cable comparison was not truly fair because I only inserted on MIT cable into my system (though I had requested an entire suite), I did learn a lot about the sound of the particular models I heard and about the willingness of the dealers to help the customer. I decided to buy the Transparent cables. I've never had Nordost cables in my system.

PeterA said:

I had a set of MIT Matrix 90 speaker cables in my system for evaluation. I had read the marketing about poles of articulation. I could adjust a knob on the box for SD or HD settings. I talked to the dealer about the settings and technology. The funny thing is that I preferred the lowest setting. Same at the dealer with the super $50K speaker cables with the giant boxes in a super system with the Magico Q7, Spectral 400 amps and top tier digital. I told the dealer that I thought there was a very strange thing going on with phase and that the more poles of articulation, the less natural it sounded. The dealer agreed. My point is that I learned very little from the MIT data about how the cables would sound in a system. And it was unclear if any of these dials were an attempt to match impedances between components. Maybe that is on other MIT cables. The cables were fully broken in dealer demos. They did not have other MIT cables so I could not try an entire suite of cables in my system. I found the cables in my system to sound very phasey and tipped up in the highs, a bit boomy in the bass and a recessed mid range. The tonal balance was a bit like the shape of an hour glass.

By contrast, I demoed a full suite of Transparent REF XL cables, each configured precisely for the various components in my system. After two full weeks of break in, they allowed me to keep them for another two weeks for a proper evaluation and answered questions along the way. They told me the networks help to counteract the natural roll off at the frequency extremes thus extending the bass and treble frequencies for a smoother, more extended and even tonal balance. This matched what I heard. Rather than an hour glass shape, this tonal balance was like a long, smooth rectangle. Very natural and evenly balanced sound.

Both companies charge very high prices for their cables. I don't understand the technology in the networks nor do I understand the configuration of the strands of wires any more than I can follow the diagrams of Nelson Pass' amplifiers or the crossovers in my speakers. Perhaps others can read and understand some of these technical designs. I understand that some companies don't want to share their technology. I read the marketing, talk to fellow owners and to dealers and then I listen before I buy.

Though the cable comparison was not truly fair because I only inserted on MIT cable into my system (though I had requested an entire suite), I did learn a lot about the sound of the particular models I heard and about the willingness of the dealers to help the customer. I decided to buy the Transparent cables. I've never had Nordost cables in my system.

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IIRC, since it was years ago that Intalked to Jack, a major part of what's going on is controlling the point where the cable goes from capacitive to inductive.

RichDavis said:

Is there any ability for Transparent to discuss in technical details as to what and how the technology is able to produce a superior sound? Do you have freq response curves to post? The problem that many people have is obtaining more technical knowledge of why there is such a cost to cables, etc. and they will sound better, etc. It's obvious that the boxes do something along the lines of MIT, but where are the differences? Is there any response curves that can be compared? What measurements can the company post that will help the consumer? I think all cable mfg, need to step it up in terms of sharing technical knowledge rather than marketing prose. Any technical discussions, especially measurement tests to show useful information on how we can evaluate better sound quality would be great.

Click to expand...

IMHO you already knew the answers before writing the question.

coopersark said:

There is a measurement. It is called "free market economics". People who have the means to purchase high end cabling are not typically stupid or ignorant, in fact just the reverse. If they like the sonic results of what they are trying in their system on an audition, and they think those results worth the money being charged, then they will commit to a purchase of that cabling. If they don't they will look elsewhere. It is that simple! If a cable manufacturer expects to survive in this highly competitive area, they had better make sure that they put out a damned excellent and competitive product at every price level that they choose to compete.
There are many retailers of cables, both brick and mortar and internet, that offer auditions. Auditioning in the context of your system and in your room is the only way that you will know what is best for you and your sonic preferences. Like it or not, there is no ideal. Audio, like any high end art is a moving target to suit variable tastes. One must try before they buy.

Click to expand...

Oh come on, there are ways they can measure cables and their ability to affect a signal. That's been proven. I know that it's possible to hear subtle differences, but it would be nice to be able to at least look at these various response curves because it may help the individual with seeing the measurements and giving them a visual representation to help them identify what will be heard. It would certainly help in the cable selection process, which seems to be a major factor for people that are on limited budgets or time constraints since no one has the time to audition every single cable on the market. At least if we knew the impedance ratings, that would help weed out the cables that wouldn't work as well.

microstrip said:

IMHO you already knew the answers before writing the question.

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I know they CAN publish the information, and its sad that they don't. It would certainly help the consumer pick what brands and model cables to audition because there are a lot of things the measurements can do to help the customer. I think it would help the industry greatly if they did.

Ekmanc said:

There are no frequency response curves that will show you how a cable sounds...

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Really? go talk to MIT about it. They have articulation response curves they can measure that will give a response curve which helps identify it's linearity across the bandwidth, any cable company can do these same measurements if they have the equipment and know how to do it. It isn't or at least shouldn't be that big of a deal. That's how several mfg figure out how to calculate the values of the passive components in those boxes that Transparent and MIT have. This is as good of a measurement to at least show how they filter the frequency range. Cables are supposed to not affect the audio bandwidth, but they generally do, it's just a matter of how much and in what area of the bandwidth.

RichDavis said:

Oh come on, there are ways they can measure cables and their ability to affect a signal. That's been proven. I know that it's possible to hear subtle differences, but it would be nice to be able to at least look at these various response curves because it may help the individual with seeing the measurements and giving them a visual representation to help them identify what will be heard. It would certainly help in the cable selection process, which seems to be a major factor for people that are on limited budgets or time constraints since no one has the time to audition every single cable on the market. At least if we knew the impedance ratings, that would help weed out the cables that wouldn't work as well.

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Commercial success is a far better predictor of performance than a bunch of charts and specs. Narrow the field to a few cables that are particularly well regarded, try them in your system and be done. Specs add zero value to expediting or simplifying the acquisition process.

Ekmanc said:

Seriously what the hell can we please stop talking about MIT

Make a new thread if you want to discuss their products...

And also I'd stay very very far away from a cable that can't show a flat frequency response.

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Umm.. Having neutral cables is a good thing. That's what most of these cable mfg are TRYING to accomplish. In order to test their cable designs, they have to see some form of response curve, which they can then listen to after they perform the measurements, and then they change an aspect of the cable design, retest them, see how it affects the response curve, etc. etc. It's all about getting them as linear and as neutral possible within certain price points. Some do this with filter boxes, some do it various cable geometry, metallurgy, etc. etc. They certainly aren't blindly designing cables without performing some form of measurement test, that I can assure you. And this industry wide, I'm only using MIT as an example since they actually talk about various measurements they perform and showing results, which is part of the education process and they aren't the only ones that perform these measurements. What you end up with can be different as you may like another brand/model cable, but if we were able to compare FR curves and then we listened to what was out there, then we can figure out what we like and don't like and then at least have the ability to narrow down the choices.

That's what some people do when they buy any piece of gear, is they look at specs and hopefully some form of response curve if nothing else but to become better educated and narrowing down the choices. I do that when buying lots of products. Heck, when I bought a pair of B&W 800 series speakers years ago, they shipped the product with the response curves of each speaker that was shipped and they included it in the box. It's something that gives more credibility. People in the recording industry are very much interested in flat response curves, and many of us that buy systems want to also have flat response as well. If anything, it might help people with their ear training as they can look at two different cables with two different response curves and then listen for the areas that are measured differently and they might be able to pinpoint it easier with listening tests.

edorr said:

Commercial success is a far better predictor of performance than a bunch of charts and specs. Narrow the field to a few cables that are particularly well regarded, try them in your system and be done. Specs add zero value to expediting or simplifying the acquisition process.

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I disagree. Maybe you don't looks at specs, but many people do look at specs. so when you buy an amplifier, you don't find out the wattage? Or any other measurement? you just walk into a store, listen to a few amps in your price range and you ask nothing about the specs of the amp? Well, i guess that's one way of doing it.

Let's say you listened a cable and love it, but it's too much money,, but you have the response curve and then you were able to see another brand/model cable with a similar response curve that was more affordable, then you could at least SEE this visually to then try it out to see if you really liked it as much, and if so, then you found something that gives you the sound your looking for at the price you can afford, and that measurement test allows you to look at other products with a similar curve to narrow down your choices. If not, then you are just spending one heck of a lot of time auditioning products, when you could have narrowed it down and maybe find something that you wouldn't normally have be gravitated towards since the retail stores can't stock every cable on the market.

If anything, it's going to help those that would use that information. Obvioulsly not every car owner looks at specs before they buy a car, but the car fanatics DO look at specs and it helps them identify what cars to consider. I did that for my last car, I narrowed down 3 cars that were priced similarly, had VERY similar performance specs and then it was down to which car I liked to drive, but I read the performance specs first to narrow down my selection. I became an informed consumer and it helped the process tremendously.

Rich

It might be helpful to members if you post your system so that all of us can get an idea of where you're coming from

RichDavis said:

(...) Heck, when I bought a pair of B&W 800 series speakers years ago, they shipped the product with the response curves of each speaker that was shipped and they included it in the box. It's something that gives more credibility.

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Rich,
Marketing, nothing else. I think you did not ask for the response curves of this particular pair to be send to you BEFORE they shipped the speakers?
You center all your arguments in network cables - should we consider that all other cable manufacturers should not be obliged to fulfill your requirements?

Steve Williams said:

Rich

It might be helpful to members if you post your system so that all of us can get an idea of where you're coming from

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I've owned a lot of gear over the years and I'm in the process of looking to replace my office system, so what I have currently is not what I want to buy for my next system, but I've been listening to equipment over the years even if I couldn't afford it. So what I currently own has nothing to do with where I'm coming from. I, for many years, would go to various dealers and audition a variety of equipment. I've owned B&W 800 series speakers that I have various electronics connected to it as I went through the improvement process, and I started out with Audioquest cables and then switched to MIT. I also have an older Meridian system, where various source equipment is connected with MIT, Cardas, Audioquest cables, I have a computer based system that I've gone from just something cheap and simple and improving it as I go and went from Audioquest cables to Transparent cables, and now I'm in the process of evaluating a variety of DACS, amps, speakers for my next upgrade as I'm finding I listen to that system more than I do my larger system. So, I'm looking at Benchmark, Wadia, Devialet, and seeking a nice monitor that will suit my budget. But I've been going to trade shows on/off since the 70's when I first got introduced to audio when I was a kid. My father had an old Fairchild Turntable, and a variety of different speakers and then I got the bug to check out various equipment and go to friends houses to listen to their equipment. I've been around systems with old McIntosh amps, JBL, Klipsh, etc. back in the old days. I almost bought a pair of Wilson Audio WATT/Puppies, but got the B&W's instead. I've also been in a variety of recording studios listening to God knows what since the 70's, so I had the rare priveledge of listening to 24 track basic tracks on Neve, SSL, API and other consoles through a garden variety of monitors ranging from small POS to URIE, custom JBl, Westlake, and others. So, I've been around during the tracking process of the recording process to the end result and heard the differences along the way. I have friends along the way that have their own recording studios where I listen to thwart they use, which helps my ear training. So that's where I'm coming from. I've gone from having inexpensive systems to releaviltey more expensive systems back and forth depending on my situation, but right now, I'm focusing on my computer based system since that's what I listen to, but it isn't what I ultimately want. It's just a work in process right now. I've talked to various companies along the way and various engineers learning and studying what I can, I've talked to acoustic engineers the design rooms and sell room treatment, engineers at famous studios about what they use and I love reading and talking to people toa further my education process.

RichDavis said:

I disagree. Maybe you don't looks at specs, but many people do look at specs. so when you buy an amplifier, you don't find out the wattage? Or any other measurement? you just walk into a store, listen to a few amps in your price range and you ask nothing about the specs of the amp? Well, i guess that's one way of doing it.

Let's say you listened a cable and love it, but it's too much money,, but you have the response curve and then you were able to see another brand/model cable with a similar response curve that was more affordable, then you could at least SEE this visually to then try it out to see if you really liked it as much, and if so, then you found something that gives you the sound your looking for at the price you can afford, and that measurement test allows you to look at other products with a similar curve to narrow down your choices. If not, then you are just spending one heck of a lot of time auditioning products, when you could have narrowed it down and maybe find something that you wouldn't normally have be gravitated towards since the retail stores can't stock every cable on the market.

If anything, it's going to help those that would use that information. Obvioulsly not every car owner looks at specs before they buy a car, but the car fanatics DO look at specs and it helps them identify what cars to consider. I did that for my last car, I narrowed down 3 cars that were priced similarly, had VERY similar performance specs and then it was down to which car I liked to drive, but I read the performance specs first to narrow down my selection. I became an informed consumer and it helped the process tremendously.

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Are you saying that if two cables (or any product for that matter) have the same FR, they will sound the same? Isn't it possible to get the same final FR by juggling several variables yet the cable will interact with a component differently? (Especially when it comes to speaker-amplifier interfaces?)

microstrip said:

Rich,
Marketing, nothing else. I think you did not ask for the response curves of this particular pair to be send to you BEFORE they shipped the speakers?
You center all your arguments in network cables - should we consider that all other cable manufacturers should not be obliged to fulfill your requirements?

Click to expand...

I already knew that the response curves of the B&W's were relatively flat. That's what they use in most of the recording studios for classical recordings back in the time frame when I bought them. I went through a phase where I was listening to a fair amount of classical recordings and on the liner notes, they mentioned B&W monitors. Wilson at that time was relatively new, I almost bought them, but I got the B&W's instead and I guess as a courtesy they included the response curves to show that they were closely matched, which was a nice touch, so they showed what I already knew. But, I read various magazine articles and at the time, the reviewers were mentioning how flat of a response they were, but this was many years ago and in the beginning of my getting more involved with the learning process. I would have LOVED it if the cable mfg had response curves, it probably would have helped me greatly in the learning process. I used to read the spec listings when I was a kid reading the buyer's guides of equipment trying to make sense. So, that's when I learned about slew rate, damping, distortion levels, etc. etc. etc. It's all part of the process of learning about this stuff.

What surprises me is that there are a people that seem to not want to see response curves. That floors me. To me, people that are into this stuff should be all over this sort of information. In the crowd that gets involved with studio equipment, they read specs, they like looking at any measurements they can get their hands on. That's what surprises me about your comments. I would think you would want as much information as you could before making a purchase. I don't just walk into a store asking for the most expensive item, whether I can afford it or not. I only buy what I feel comfortable. If I can get good audio and pay less, I'm up for that. I look at the big budget products to get a sense of what it can sound like and try to get the best sound for whatever budget I'm working on and specs and measurements help me in my selection process.

edorr said:

Commercial success is a far better predictor of performance than a bunch of charts and specs. Narrow the field to a few cables that are particularly well regarded, try them in your system and be done. Specs add zero value to expediting or simplifying the acquisition process.

Click to expand...

If that's your approach, then that's your approach, but it isn't my approach and it isn't the approach of everyone else. Stereophile does post measurements quite often, and it helps the learning process. I wish they did it more, but at least they are one of the few publications that does this. But unfortunately it's not done with cables.

MylesBAstor said:

Are you saying that if two cables (or any product for that matter) have the same FR, they will sound the same? Isn't it possible to get the same final FR by juggling several variables yet the cable will interact with a component differently? (Especially when it comes to speaker-amplifier interfaces?)

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How about phase angle? Speed? Square wave response? Interaction with the two connecting components? It is all a crap shoot and the best way is to start auditioning the cables from manufacturers that enjoy solid reputations in the market. While while I use (by necessity of Spectral Electronics) MIT Oracle MAX SHD cabling in my main audio system, I use Transparent OPUS MMII cabling in my secondary audio system. MIT uses an impedance range switch. It is not exact. The irony is that the Transparent cable is much more balanced in its sound as the cable is precisely tuned for the exact impedance of the two components. Transparent is the only company that I am aware of doing this (at their Reference level and above). The result is stunning!
Again, as I have posted before, it is to try a few well regarded cables in one's system and choose the ones that sound best to them.