Synergistic Research HFT

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
I just got 2 sets of the HFT to try. I'm curious if current users have existing room treatment. I ask because the recommended locations coexist with room treatment and other items. In my case, I have RPG BAD panels in the middle of the ceiling so while Level 2 suggests the bullet in the center of the ceiling, does that mean I should place it on the face of my panel? Also, for those with flat screens, would having the bullets lower than recommended (or even the 3 bullets not lining up at the same height affect performance)?

Of course, I contacted SR but Ted's kinda vague with his replies (even when I submitted pictures of the room).

Just put them where you imagine they will sound best and then you can imagine that your room really became much better sounding.
 

GaryProtein

VIP/Donor
Jul 25, 2012
2,542
31
385
NY
. . . .Of course, I contacted SR but Ted's kinda vague with his replies (even when I submitted pictures of the room).

I can't imagine why! ROTFLMAO!

Just put them where you imagine they will sound best and then you can imagine that your room really became much better sounding.

Perfectly stated!
 

jap

Banned
Apr 6, 2012
542
1
0
I just got 2 sets of the HFT to try. I'm curious if current users have existing room treatment. I ask because the recommended locations coexist with room treatment and other items. In my case, I have RPG BAD panels in the middle of the ceiling so while Level 2 suggests the bullet in the center of the ceiling, does that mean I should place it on the face of my panel? Also, for those with flat screens, would having the bullets lower than recommended (or even the 3 bullets not lining up at the same height affect performance)?

Of course, I contacted SR but Ted's kinda vague with his replies (even when I submitted pictures of the room).

I have Realtraps in my listening room.

Ted sent me a photoshop'd picture with recommended placement and I spoke to Eliott Nommensen, Research and Development. Both were very helpful.
 

GaryProtein

VIP/Donor
Jul 25, 2012
2,542
31
385
NY
I have Realtraps in my listening room. . . .

I know your RealTraps actually work and have measurable results.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
Just put them where you imagine they will sound best and then you can imagine that your room really became much better sounding.

:D


The darn thing can't work, as simple as that. They are pretty though ..
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,236
81
1,725
New York City
Just put them where you imagine they will sound best and then you can imagine that your room really became much better sounding.

I thought they had different levels depending upon how many one was using and showed on their website where to place their product?
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
I thought they had different levels depending upon how many one was using and showed on their website where to place their product?

I was just joshing the guy. I have no idea if these things can contribute to producing better sound in your room. But, several people have chimed and say they do hear an improvement. And as I said from the beginning, I would rather hear from people who bought them and tried them than from people who can only speculate.
 

mtseymour

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
32
2
313
Vancouver, BC
I just got 2 sets of the HFT to try. I'm curious if current users have existing room treatment. I ask because the recommended locations coexist with room treatment and other items. In my case, I have RPG BAD panels in the middle of the ceiling so while Level 2 suggests the bullet in the center of the ceiling, does that mean I should place it on the face of my panel? Also, for those with flat screens, would having the bullets lower than recommended (or even the 3 bullets not lining up at the same height affect performance)?

Of course, I contacted SR but Ted's kinda vague with his replies (even when I submitted pictures of the room).

The BAD panels seems like a good choice for the ceiling. Since it has a fabric wrap, it may be difficult to place the HFT on the panels with the blu tack. My dealer and I already have room treatment with good results when we tried the ART and HFT/FEQ products. We used the Synergistic guidelines as a starting point and tried different positions to complement existing acoustic treatments (eg. behind speakers, front corners, wall/ceiling boundaries, 1st reflection points, on the speaker iteself). If you find a good spot, move the HFT in small increments to check for further improvements. If there is no improvement, return the HFT to Synergistic.

Designers like Ted are in a tough spot. They can't give specific advice without a detailed study of your room/equipment and hearing your system. If Ted actually devoted that much time to each $300 HFT order, I don't know how he can run his company and make a decent profit. This is one reason for the money-back guarantee.
 

tboooe

Member
May 11, 2013
33
0
6
I just got the HFT on loan from The Cable Co. I will be trying these out tonight and will report back what I hear or dont hear. Stay tuned.
 

Matias

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2013
21
3
310
São Paulo - Brazil
In my experience the first set makes the soundstage more focused and resolved, but the second set is more insteresting as it is installed around the room and makes the ambience of the music more surround-sounding.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,438
13,468
2,710
London
It's frustrating when some members go on and on about something they have not heard. I wonder if they spend all their time trolling on forums because their system "measures" well but don't sound so good :) Since I use "conventional" and "snake oil" acoustic treatment like the FEQ/HFT, here are my two cents.

Measurements are useful, but don't replace actual listening sessions.

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RichDavis

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2014
182
16
248
I've talked to some people that have experience with acoustic engineering and they haven't been able to apply any logical physics behind the claim that they would work. They have simply shrugged their shoulders and pointed me in the direction of proven, measured, tested technology that is undeniably effective forms of room treatment. In the realm of acoustic treatment, which is how they are marketed, there are three things that happen to sound waves. 1. Reflection 2. Absorption and 3. Diffusion

I don't know what those HFT are going to do with either three of those things that do anything to a sound wave. Even the physical size would dictate that they aren't large enough of an object to do anything that one can actually hear in terms of "room treatment". There are measurement equipment and things that can be done to see the effects of any room treatment products, or even arranging the speakers in a different position, or using things like furniture, drapes, etc. in the room which will do any of those three things. Drapes absorb certain frequencies which can be measured and can effect reelection of certain frequencies, Couches, chairs, etc. can do the same thing. Etc. etc. But it's a matter of their effectiveness. They probably won't do as much as designed and tested forms of "room treatment", but it's OK to use drapes, couches, chairs because they are large enough objects to absorb sound. Heck, even out bodies will absorb sound, which is why a room packed with people is going to change the acoustics of a room that is empty. But little tiny pieces of metal? No one has shown any room measurements to prove otherwise, which SHOULD be done. I haven't read any university study on them, I have seen no acoustic engineer show room measurements to prove they actually do anything. Now, with a device you plug into the wall? I'm sure that it might do something at some level to the performance of other equipment since there are plenty of parallel filtering products on the market that can reduce noise, which I'm sure effect what's comes out of the speakers, but to think it's a form of "room treatment", I think that's stretching it. There are plenty of ways room acoustics can be measured as there are several pieces of s/w and h/w that can be used to test the "THEORY" that they work. I think it's in EVERYONE'S interest to ask the mfg to show independent test results from SOMEONE, whether it's an acoustic engineer applying what is commonly taught on what measurements to take and compare an untreated room with a treated room to see how they are or aren't changing the room acoustics FIRST before just simply saying they do anything. Yeah, I'm sure people can be manipulated into thinking they are hearing something different. I would THINK that the FEQ might do the most, but I don't think it's going to be more effective than putting some absorption panels and diffusion panels in strategic locations in the room. I've heard the effects and seen measurements of an untreated room vs a treated room using things on the market that have been sold for many years. Some are just more or less effective than others. But there are plenty of measurements that can be taken to prove their effectiveness. But, I think it's futile to argue this without measurements. We can see measurements of anything else that's connected to our system or placed in our rooms to see if there is a difference in quality of sound, so what makes this product immune to such measurements? I have yet to talk to someone with experience in designing room treatment, designing rooms for listening/recording purposes or fine tuning rooms that have taken measurements and have come forward with them to support the use of these devices. I would look towards someone that has credentials in the industry, University test results, or some form of independent study proving their effectiveness and actually comparing it to something that HAS been proven. $1000 to $1500 in absorption panels and diffusors WILL make a NOTICEABLE improvement if placed in the right places (just simply 1st wall reflections) will make a considerable improvement, and it doesn't take that much of it. So why would people spend the same amount of money on something that hasn't been proven over things that have? I'm STILL trying to figure that one out. This isn't a thing of "you have to hear them", it's just trying to add some logical reasoning by wanting to see before and after room measurements to actually prove they work and to prove that they work better than the same amount of money spent on something that IS proven to work. Absorption panels cost less than a few hundred dollars each, depending on things like fabric used or not used. Diffusors can cost a few hundred bucks each depending on size and construction materials. $1500 +tax actually goes a long way if you buy the right products that will increase the sound quality of our equipment in most small rooms. Obviously, low frequency absorption products are more expensive, regardless of the product, and it takes quite a bit since low frequencies are not so simple to absorb, but for the majority of the bandwidth we are listening to (midrange and upper frequencies), $1500 of room treatment will make a very significant night/day improvement. Obviously, one can spent tens of thousands of dollars, to get the ultimate listening room, but there really is no comparison between using a few sets of HFT's and a FEQ and a totally perfectly designed and tuned and sound proofed listening room. It's just a shame people aren't asking the mfg to show some independent test results on the effectiveness of room acoustics. Ways to spend money on "tweaks" isn't a new concept. I think a lot of us are trying to find that weird product that's unexplainable to improve our system, but unfortunately, we should still be measuring the effects of it to produce undeniable results to prevent any arguments.

As far as measuring something, it doesn't change the outcome, it just proves whether something works or doesn't. It just a matter of conducting the right tests with the right equipment that's capable of measuring something to prove or disprove the effectiveness of the product in question. Listening is something that is a perfect ability of ours, because no two people hear the same, and our brains (whether or not we are under the influence of mind altering chemicals) can play tricks on us. Pyschoacoustics and optical illusions have taught us that. It's easy to produce scenarios where we think something is happening, when in reality it isn't.

Apply some common sense before spending money, unless you just like to buy things whether they work or not. I'm sure we're all guilty of that from time to time. :)

I would spend more time studying real forms of room treatment and spend your money in that direction because you'll actually HEAR noticeable improvements that can be measured if you buy a product and place it in the room which the mfg can help you with that, and that's been studied and measured to the point where it's almost to a point where it's common sense and it WILL make a big difference in sound quality and they can show measurements to back up their claims, if they can't then move on to someone that can.
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,126
651
1,200
Alto, NM
Mr. Davis,

I believe you have stated this before on numerous occasions. Some folks think they are effective and make an audible improvement. Can't you just leave it there and respect the fact that there's a difference of opinion on these items?

If not, why?

Do you have anything NEW to add to the discussion?

GG
 

RichDavis

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2014
182
16
248
Mr. Davis,

I believe you have stated this before on numerous occasions. Some folks think they are effective and make an audible improvement. Can't you just leave it there and respect the fact that there's a difference of opinion on these items?

If not, why?

Do you have anything NEW to add to the discussion?

GG
Well, based on discussions with acoustic engineers, it's not a valid form of room treatment that's been proven by any form of measurement, so if you THINK it does something and you want to blow $1500 on it instead of buying REAL, HONEST to GOD room treatment, then go right ahead. You'll probably decide later on down the road that it doesn't really do any thing and you'll pull those little things off the wall. Seriously, I would like to see PROVEN technology promoted no UN PROVEN technology. In the realm of Room Treatment, there are plenty of Universities or room treatment mfg and independent testing labs that do conduct studies and can prove some form of effectiveness, so until it's done, I won't buy into it and I would not suggest others do until it is.

What we THINK is going on can sometimes be proven NOT going on and then people then change their minds.

Why do you think it's so important to completely ignore tried and true methods of room treatment that's been tested, proven levels of effectiveness that WILL improve the sound of the room acoustics and your system's performance that are professionally used in studios around the world? why?

Do you have any measurements to prove it works? If it does, then there should be measurements people can easily provide, so why are you avoiding the supplying of measurements when asked? Why do you not use some common sense that acoustic engineers typically will apply when treating a room?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Well, based on discussions with acoustic engineers, it's not a valid form of room treatment that's been proven by any form of measurement, so if you THINK it does something and you want to blow $1500 on it instead of buying REAL, HONEST to GOD room treatment, then go right ahead. You'll probably decide later on down the road that it doesn't really do any thing and you'll pull those little things off the wall. Seriously, I would like to see PROVEN technology promoted no UN PROVEN technology. In the realm of Room Treatment, there are plenty of Universities or room treatment mfg and independent testing labs that do conduct studies and can prove some form of effectiveness, so until it's done, I won't buy into it and I would not suggest others do until it is.

What we THINK is going on can sometimes be proven NOT going on and then people then change their minds.

Why do you think it's so important to completely ignore tried and true methods of room treatment that's been tested, proven levels of effectiveness that WILL improve the sound of the room acoustics and your system's performance that are professionally used in studios around the world? why?

Do you have any measurements to prove it works? If it does, then there should be measurements people can easily provide, so why are you avoiding the supplying of measurements when asked? Why do you not use some common sense that acoustic engineers typically will apply when treating a room?

Rich

as I see it thedudeabides has asked you to cease and desist if you have nothing new to add to the discussion as he and others feel that they are effective and make an audible improvement. All you are adding here is nothing new. I am asking you to stop. You have made your point. Now move on. It's their money and they seem happy where they have spent it and don't need or want you to be asking them about data and measurements
 

RichDavis

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2014
182
16
248
Mr. Davis,

I believe you have stated this before on numerous occasions. Some folks think they are effective and make an audible improvement. Can't you just leave it there and respect the fact that there's a difference of opinion on these items?

If not, why?

Do you have anything NEW to add to the discussion?

GG

Let me ask you a couple of simple questions. When you go to the doctor's office and you have an illness, are you going to take a prescription drug that hasn't been tested as to it's effectiveness in treating that illness you have? Think of your room acoustics as having an illness. How would you treat it? using a product that's unproven or using a product that IS proven with empirical data to show it's effectiveness?
 

RichDavis

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2014
182
16
248
Rich

as I see it thedudeabides has asked you to cease and desist if you have nothing new to add to the discussion as he and others feel that they are effective and make an audible improvement. All you are adding here is nothing new. I am asking you to stop. You have made your point. Now move on. It's their money and they seem happy where they have spent it and don't need or want you to be asking them about data and measurements

Steve, you've mentioned to me several times that I'm preaching to the choir about measurements, yet others don't view things that way. if you like having people promote an unproven technology that's kind of expensive, then that kind of makes me feel that you don't mind people doing it. I can understand one's subjectivity, but this technology should be proven with objectivity first before it's put on the market.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve, you've mentioned to me several times that I'm preaching to the choir about measurements, yet others don't view things that way. if you like having people promote an unproven technology that's kind of expensive, then that kind of makes me feel that you don't mind people doing it. I can understand one's subjectivity, but this technology should be proven with objectivity first before it's put on the market.

we all understand your argument as you continue ad nauseum to make it. Valid or not these members have asked you to stop as they don't care about your premise
 

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