A New LP-S In The House.

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
0
323
Pacific Northwest
Through some good luck (and a good spy network ;), I was lucky enough to score a new Benz LP-S. Boy, it was tough deciding but I figured I'd go for the LP-S since so many raved about it. Because I'd heard about it being much differnt than an LP I was a bit apprehensive. And with only 13 hrs. on it all I can say is YES, it's different. I liken it to an LP that went to Weight Watchers and lost a bunch of belly fat. Gone is the midrange weighted sound. That part I will surely miss, but what you gain is better clarity and insight. I can understand lyrics much better and your hear more of a singer's voice, more detail. The good news is that the detail isn't overboard. The LP-S sounds like it's a bit tilted towrds the upper midrange but I am not so sure that this is the case. It may seem this way only because much of the low-midlle midrange emphasis has been removed. The LP-S seems to be more even from bass to treble with more detail added in. At this point, the treble is still a bit grainy yet and can get a bit harsh on some classical creshendo's but I am hoping that will improve with time. Another thing is that this specimen has .38mV vs .34mV of my LP. Combine this with more clarity and and definition and I seem to require less volume to listen than in the past.
Right from the start I knew it would be different. Brass is seen everywhere when looking at this cartridge. Even with the Phantom Supreme's larger weight it had to be brought back farther than I expected. Youser! Set up has proved much, much easier this time around vs. my ol' LP. Using the Graham jig was much easier since the cartridge did not take nearly the same amount of rotation to align the cantilever. The "MR" stylus is much smaller to the naked eye, or at least seems so. Azimuth set up required less CW rotation and more CCW, a good sign, since it was seemingly more in a neutral rotation. I brought out the Fozgometer just to see how the readings/settings compared to the LP. Much better all around. As it turns out my eyeball setting was very close to what the Fozgometer had shown. So I figure I'll listen from there and adjust later. But one thing is different from my LP, slight adjustments in azimuth make bigger changes in L vs R channel output. In fact, running the signal from my phono preamp, it was easy to go past 40 with seemingly less rotation vs what my LP required, which never hit the "40" mark with either channel. I'm guessing that the "MR" stylus has something to do with this and maybe other things that make the LP-S different from the LP.
I will post more as break-in passes for those who like me had/have an LP and are thinking of buying a rebuilt LP or a new LP-S.
 

Peter Breuninger

[Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
Jul 20, 2010
1,231
4
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Congrats, it's a great cart! Part Koetsu, part Lyra.
 

drunkenrabbit

New Member
Dec 1, 2013
66
2
0
Sydney, Aus
Congratulations - my favourite cart as well...well chosen kind Sir
 

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
0
323
Pacific Northwest
Yeah, I suspect the same. One day it sounds great the next not so great. I have been playing with the anti-skating adjustments a bit and am finding that the anti-skate weight may be a bit light. Interestingly, it's 1.0-1.5 grams lighter than the weight on the G-2.0. Considering the mass of the Phantom and the fact that it's equipped to handle a cart. as heavy as an LP-S, I would have expected the anti-skate weight to be a bit heavier. I like to start with a neutral-near neutral setting and reduce the anti-skate force to make my final adjustments. I couldn't do it as is so I had to do what I did with my G-2 and mod the weight a bit. At least I know why the LP-S was skating past the first couple of grooves even with the anti-skate set to "high".

So, is the 40 hour break in an accurate number?
 
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Mendel

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2012
209
149
948
GTA
Congrats on the new cartridge!
Where did you find one, is Benz now widely available again?
 

trh8654

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2010
88
1
351
Virginia
Any updates on the breakin or how the LPS compares to the LP? I have an LP and a Gullwing. I prefer the Gullwing. I'm thinking about trading my LP and some $$ to a friend who owns an LPS but finds the upper midrange to aggressive in his system. Thanks
 

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
0
323
Pacific Northwest
Hi trh8654,

I have about 60 hrs. on it now. It was a bit dicey at about 20-30 hrs., it started to sound a bit bright, harsh in the treble. Then at about 40hrs. it started to come back to the initial sound.

I haven't broken in a "new" cartridge since 2001 so I was a bit on the worried side at what started to happen at 20hrs. I have a tubed phono and have been tube rolling a bit. The LPS is certainly more open in the midrange. I can certainly see where your friend might have issues. I share a common issue of treble brightness/harshness at certain frequencies. There are times when I miss my LP's midrange. But the good news is that the LPS isn't what I would call analytical and I still don't consider it a "bright" sounding cart., it's just that it's more even keeled from top to bottom. The finer stylus is a blessing and is much better on older or noisier lp's. If I had a chance to trade back for LP I can't say I would at this point. The increased clarity is very nice. My dealer claims that I should hear more improvements around at 80hrs. We shall see. It definitely is a brighter sounding with my the tube pairs I was using with the LP. Though the pair of Golden Lion 6922's I was using did emphasize the upper treble on their own. I swap to something a bit softer has helped diminish this problem and also dropped the noise from less than stellar vinyl as well.

Will he let you give it a try first? How would you characterize the sound of your system? Could you handle LPs's less potent midrange?

I have never heard a Gullwing but I have a feeling from what I remember reading that it's not as warm sounding as the LP, more like a LPS maybe?

Let me know what happens I 'd like to see what you think of the LPS.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Not trying to be negative here, BUT all of this break-in stuff does give rise to a question. How on earth would the designer of any gear that needs extensive break-in before it can sound either a) at it's full potential or b) listenable at all; have any idea as to the sound when the designer first produces the product? Maybe a topic for another thread. LOL.
 

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
0
323
Pacific Northwest
I'm guessing many designers listen to a product for a lot longer than 40 hrs. before they pass final judgement on it. Wouldn't you? Seeing as how someone usually never hear about how long a piece of equipment was auditioned before it's released there's no way to know. I guess it depends upon what "extensive" means. What's extensive for a cartridge? 40hrs.? 40 hrs. is what Benz has on their spec. sheet. I don't know many people who buy new cartridges and don't comment on the sound changing during a breaking-in period, whether it would be considered a long or short break-in I suppose is debatable. I'm guessing that if you were to look at all of the spec. sheets on most of Benz's cartridges they all say 40 hrs. Maybe it's a number based upon an average or an estimate based upon experience. I guess the same can be said for all aspects of the audio chain. How about cables for instance. What's a typical breaking-in period for a set of cables? Many people claim tubes need a good 10-20 hrs.
I think a more interesting topic would be what's really happening that causes the sound to change one day to the next, or from 10, 20, or 30 hrs.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I'm guessing many designers listen to a product for a lot longer than 40 hrs. before they pass final judgement on it. Wouldn't you? Seeing as how someone usually never hear about how long a piece of equipment was auditioned before it's released there's no way to know. I guess it depends upon what "extensive" means. What's extensive for a cartridge? 40hrs.? 40 hrs. is what Benz has on their spec. sheet. I don't know many people who buy new cartridges and don't comment on the sound changing during a breaking-in period, whether it would be considered a long or short break-in I suppose is debatable. I'm guessing that if you were to look at all of the spec. sheets on most of Benz's cartridges they all say 40 hrs. Maybe it's a number based upon an average or an estimate based upon experience. I guess the same can be said for all aspects of the audio chain. How about cables for instance. What's a typical breaking-in period for a set of cables? Many people claim tubes need a good 10-20 hrs.
I think a more interesting topic would be what's really happening that causes the sound to change one day to the next, or from 10, 20, or 30 hrs.

All probably true. OTOH, we are hearing of more and more gear that takes (multi) hundreds of hours to break in. Some of the new ARC gear comes to mind here. As for cartridges, I would guess it could take 40+ hours easily. The cause may have something to do with the settling in of the coils and or any other moving parts. ( or maybe something entirely different--or maybe none of the above and we are just getting over an expectation bias and the "perceived" change is nothing more than that).
Anyhow, not meaning to de-rail this thread...so no more on this subject from me.:D
 

trh8654

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2010
88
1
351
Virginia
Hi trh8654,

I have about 60 hrs. on it now. It was a bit dicey at about 20-30 hrs., it started to sound a bit bright, harsh in the treble. Then at about 40hrs. it started to come back to the initial sound.

I haven't broken in a "new" cartridge since 2001 so I was a bit on the worried side at what started to happen at 20hrs. I have a tubed phono and have been tube rolling a bit. The LPS is certainly more open in the midrange. I can certainly see where your friend might have issues. I share a common issue of treble brightness/harshness at certain frequencies. There are times when I miss my LP's midrange. But the good news is that the LPS isn't what I would call analytical and I still don't consider it a "bright" sounding cart., it's just that it's more even keeled from top to bottom. The finer stylus is a blessing and is much better on older or noisier lp's. If I had a chance to trade back for LP I can't say I would at this point. The increased clarity is very nice. My dealer claims that I should hear more improvements around at 80hrs. We shall see. It definitely is a brighter sounding with my the tube pairs I was using with the LP. Though the pair of Golden Lion 6922's I was using did emphasize the upper treble on their own. I swap to something a bit softer has helped diminish this problem and also dropped the noise from less than stellar vinyl as well.

Will he let you give it a try first? How would you characterize the sound of your system? Could you handle LPs's less potent midrange?

I have never heard a Gullwing but I have a feeling from what I remember reading that it's not as warm sounding as the LP, more like a LPS maybe?

Let me know what happens I 'd like to see what you think of the LPS.

I have made the LP (plus $$) trade for the LPS. Should be here next week. Its 3 months old and has around 20-30 hours on it. The owner likes the LP I sent a lot and hates the LPS. I'll keep you posted when it gets here.
 

trh8654

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2010
88
1
351
Virginia
Listening to LPS now. Different cartridge altogether than the LP in my system. Much more powerful sounding than either Gullwing or LP. A powerful more transparent version of the Gullwing. Maybe slightly more relaxed, with more detail through most of the freq. range. Gullwing might extend a little more on top but will have to listen to some more records to be sure. Great trade for me. ;)
 

Grooves

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2012
152
0
323
Pacific Northwest
Yeah, I agree. It sounds like it's a win-win for you. Unfortunately, things haven't quite come around to where I need them. One day things improve another day they get worse. So, then I played around with some of my cables and now my preamp-to PSU cable is dysfunctional. It will cost me $200 to have my Naim cable repaired (if it can be) or $850 for the new and imroved version. Not to mention, my Naim gear are at that 10 yr. rebuild age. STOP already!

Damn, I just want it the way it was a few months ago!! That's what I get for going for the gusto. I have my tube gear in place now and while the top end has improved, my M3A is showing that the LP-S is out classing it. My Naim gear is much more resolving but my Naim preamp is showing the LP-S to be brighter, less flushed out in the upper mids-to highs. This plays into my room weakness and probably more of my preamp's long standing weakness/beahvior. The funny thing is that my CD player sounds way better through my Naim gear tham my tube gear, where it sounds much brighter! Go figure.

Now, I have to decide what I will do:
1. Get my cable fixed and see what things are like at that point.
2. Try and get back to an LP.
3. Decide it's time to go with a new preamp/amp, a much more daunting challenge.


One thing is certain though, my litlle ol' CJ MV60SE is performing better than I expected, great bass and it's fast and quick. And if it weren't for the brightness issue of my Naim 52, it gives much better detail and sounstage performance than my M3A. Another, "Go figure!"
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,018
13,347
2,665
Beverly Hills, CA
I find Lyras too edgy and bright. I like my Benz Ruby 2. I like the "midrange weighted" (Grooves post #1) warmth of the original Benz LP.

Per a Benz Micro Press Release dated January 14, 2015, new LP-S MRs are being made by Lukaschek's "streamlined" staff (does anyone have insight into the true story there?). One would think that the new production of each cartridge would sound substantially the same as the old production of each cartridge. But Benz Micro's Update Release of November 20, 2014, declares that the new cartridges "surpass all previous versions in music reproduction" (but leaves no clue as to what that means). So the new ones sound different. But different in what ways?

My conundrum is to find a current production cartridge which has the warmth-tilted, lower midrange weighted, tonal balance characteristics of the Benz LP and of traditional Koetsus. Price is not an issue.

Any suggestions?
 

Roydrage

New Member
Mar 25, 2014
19
0
0
I find Lyras too edgy and bright. I like my Benz Ruby 2. I like the "midrange weighted" (Grooves post #1) warmth of the original Benz LP.

Per a Benz Micro Press Release dated January 14, 2015, new LP-S MRs are being made by Lukaschek's "streamlined" staff (does anyone have insight into the true story there?). One would think that the new production of each cartridge would sound substantially the same as the old production of each cartridge. But Benz Micro's Update Release of November 20, 2014, declares that the new cartridges "surpass all previous versions in music reproduction" (but leaves no clue as to what that means). So the new ones sound different. But different in what ways?

My conundrum is to find a current production cartridge which has the warmth-tilted, lower midrange weighted, tonal balance characteristics of the Benz LP and of traditional Koetsus. Price is not an issue.

Any suggestions?

Seems you and I are having similar issues... I have been sitting on the fence for a Year... I know that the Atlas is not what I want, It is a great cart for sure, but not suited to my tastes... I hear a top end energy that seems unatural to me... I loved my OLD Benz LPS but
the first Generation, and is as old as the hills...

I have been leaning towards the Air Tight PC-1 Supreme, but have Yet to have ANYONE verify that it works with the VPI 3D 12" Arm! Of course that Atlas does as it is Harry's fav, but the only feedback I have on the Supreme is JV saying it's heavy, and does
Not like Uni-Pivot arms of which the VPI is.

I Do have it on very good Authority that the ETNA is Much, Much Warmer than the ATLAS... But not as Spectacular???

So it seems like ETNA or SUPREME... But which???

Tony
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I find Lyras too edgy and bright. I like my Benz Ruby 2. I like the "midrange weighted" (Grooves post #1) warmth of the original Benz LP.

Per a Benz Micro Press Release dated January 14, 2015, new LP-S MRs are being made by Lukaschek's "streamlined" staff (does anyone have insight into the true story there?). One would think that the new production of each cartridge would sound substantially the same as the old production of each cartridge. But Benz Micro's Update Release of November 20, 2014, declares that the new cartridges "surpass all previous versions in music reproduction" (but leaves no clue as to what that means). So the new ones sound different. But different in what ways?

My conundrum is to find a current production cartridge which has the warmth-tilted, lower midrange weighted, tonal balance characteristics of the Benz LP and of traditional Koetsus. Price is not an issue.

Any suggestions?

I'm also having a similar conundrum. We share the same cartridge ( Benz Ruby 2) and same questions about the new Benz gear...If there is in fact new Benz gear??
I would like to hear the Benz LPS MR, IF and when it comes available again. Meanwhile, I have another issue, my phono stage gets noisy with cartridges that put out less than 0.35 Mv. So, some of the better models are a non-starter...the Transfigurations for example. I recently heard the Lyra Etna..it is good, although a little on the bright side ( as you pointed out...although the set-up may have been at fault; the Lyra's are ultra critical of this).
So, I guess we will sit on the side lines for a bit..:confused:
 

TBone

New Member
Nov 15, 2012
1,237
1
0
Hi Davey ...

I'm also having a similar conundrum. We share the same cartridge ( Benz Ruby 2) and same questions about the new Benz gear

My analog rig w/current Ruby2H work wonderfully, much larger than the sum of its parts. The R2H is kinda a hit or miss type cart in my books, very dependent on setup and synergy. Over the course of many years; my R2H is the only static item within my entire system that hasn't been touched by further refinements (mods, although I do apply specific oils/treatments to keep the carts rubber suspension from drying). Since my early days with Nagaoka's, I've preferred boron cantilevers. The FG-S stylus (like the OrtReplicant) is aggressively cut, sits deeper within the groove. They impart a fair bit of energy back into the arm/turntable, careful matching, precise setups, and clean vinyl are key. IME, Benz w/FG-S can often sound "dirty" depending on mount. At one point in my hometown, we had a boutique shop (the owner, a great guy) who sold Benz, but he always demonstrated them (incorrectly tail dragged) unfavorably against other carts (mostly vs Shelters). To this day, I'm not certain if he did it purposely, or he simply didn't understand its specific physical requirements. Either way, he was "convincing", sold a lot of Shelters (which I do like, but...).

That rant aside, I will need to move on relatively soon, and I doubt my next cartridge will be a Benz. Not as big a fan of the Micro-Ridge stylus versions as others, although that's open to debate. Plus, the current state of Benz is a worry (esp the stories I've heard). Older LP/LPS are available with FGS, but they're very expensive, the LPS is too heavy, and the LP to my ears wasn't any better than my current R2. The best sounding cartridge / system I've EVER heard - used a Benz Ebony TR (w/FGS) ... truly magnificent, I've lusted for one ever since, but it's tiny output is an issue.

The Ort Cadenza line, primarily the Bronze (alum cant/replicant stylus) or Black (boron cant/shibata) I've heard and liked. Funny, the Bronze has the kind of stylus I desire, the Black has the boron cantilever ...
 
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DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
TBone, I agree with you, the R2 is a superb cartridge, which is why I haven't been in a hurry to replace it. Unfortunately, as you hint at, it is getting a little long in the tooth now. ( I too am concerned about the suspension, although mine still tracks and sounds fine).
I personally don't like the Ortofon's that much ( at least the ones I have heard). Plus, the higher up you go in the line, the lower the output. I did recently hear the new A95, which I though quite good, except again....virtually no output!
I will be VERY interested in the "new" LPS MR, IF....BIG IF, it gets to see the light of day. I'm not too worried about the company staying in biz, as I have a feeling that if I went for the Benz, it would last me a long time. ( Carts seem to either work (functionally) right away, or they don't).
 

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