Ls-50 update

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I have now spent considerable time listening to the KEF LS50 speakers on custom made Sound Anchor stands augmented by the Definitive Technology subs that I previously discussed. Everyone should have a chance to hear these speakers in their own homes with their own gear just so you know how much sound $1,500 full retail can buy you. By now, most of you have read all of the superlatives that have been written about these speakers which I feel are deserved. These speakers are very pure and thus transparent right up to that point where you try and turn the volume just a little bit higher and you hit their ceiling. No, they don't fall apart, they just lose that magical purity that makes them sound almost electrostatic-like. However, the LS50s will play into a much bigger room than what the common wisdom says they can and they will fill that space at fairly high SPLs as long as you don't push too far. For many people, I'm sure the LS50s will provide all of the volume levels they would ever want.

I think there are several reasons for the almost startling clarity/purity of the LS50s and it starts with the design and execution of the cabinet and the quality of the Uni-Q driver. The other part is caused by omission of any real bass in the bottom two octaves (20Hz to 40Hz and 40Hz to 80Hz) as well as a diminution of upper bass as well. The balance is still uncanny in how good it sounds and it's only when you contrast the LS50s with full-range speakers that you realize there is more 'there' there to be heard and you are not hearing it. Even with 4 subs like I'm using, you are still missing bass information in the mid and upper bass when listening through the LS50s. And yes, I didn't set my crossover point as high on my subs as several people suggested because I don't like the sound of subwoofers pulling double duty as subs and woofers and I think it tends to muddy up the overall sound.

Moving back to the Def Tech BP7000SC speakers revealed how much information was missing when listening to the LS50s. Probably the biggest difference in the bass was the difference between having two 5 1/4" drivers in the LS50s vice having eight 6 1/2" drivers in the BP7000SC speakers. The eight 6 1/2" drivers are obviously moving much more air than a pair of 5 1/4" drivers. The same holds true for the tweeters. There is much more air coming off cymbals when they are struck as well as the sound of breathing and air moving through wind instruments with the BP7000SC speakers. That is a difference between four tweeters and two tweeters and bipolar vice front firing.

The dynamic envelope the LS50 has to play in is smaller than full range speakers which restricts the ultimate dynamic range and the SPL output you can listen to before the magic starts fading and you have to back off of the throttle. I suspect that many people will never find that point anyway. I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with the LS50s and if someone told me that I was going to be 'stuck' with them forever, I wouldn't cry about it as long as I still had my subs to use. The LS50s really are special speakers, but I have moved back to the 'big sound' of full-range speakers.
 

Dre_J

Industry Expert
Mar 5, 2012
478
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0
Interesting read Mark.

I've had similar experiences even with small monitors at 20x the price. My guess is that after the purity/clarity which is partly in the cloak of sometimes limited range be it volume or frequency is understood, the choice comes down to personal preference. Sometimes, there is something to be said for a more visceral (in the form of completeness not necessarily amplitude) presentation.

Nothing wrong with either choice but music preferences (or the multitude of) can have some effect on this decision as well. (not directed at you in general but overall)

In short, I understand where you are coming from.

Dre
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
3,970
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San Diego
www.avrev.com
I have now spent considerable time listening to the KEF LS50 speakers on custom made Sound Anchor stands augmented by the Definitive Technology subs that I previously discussed. Everyone should have a chance to hear these speakers in their own homes with their own gear just so you know how much sound $1,500 full retail can buy you. By now, most of you have read all of the superlatives that have been written about these speakers which I feel are deserved. These speakers are very pure and thus transparent right up to that point where you try and turn the volume just a little bit higher and you hit their ceiling. No, they don't fall apart, they just lose that magical purity that makes them sound almost electrostatic-like. However, the LS50s will play into a much bigger room than what the common wisdom says they can and they will fill that space at fairly high SPLs as long as you don't push too far. For many people, I'm sure the LS50s will provide all of the volume levels they would ever want.

I think there are several reasons for the almost startling clarity/purity of the LS50s and it starts with the design and execution of the cabinet and the quality of the Uni-Q driver. The other part is caused by omission of any real bass in the bottom two octaves (20Hz to 40Hz and 40Hz to 80Hz) as well as a diminution of upper bass as well. The balance is still uncanny in how good it sounds and it's only when you contrast the LS50s with full-range speakers that you realize there is more 'there' there to be heard and you are not hearing it. Even with 4 subs like I'm using, you are still missing bass information in the mid and upper bass when listening through the LS50s. And yes, I didn't set my crossover point as high on my subs as several people suggested because I don't like the sound of subwoofers pulling double duty as subs and woofers and I think it tends to muddy up the overall sound.

Moving back to the Def Tech BP7000SC speakers revealed how much information was missing when listening to the LS50s. Probably the biggest difference in the bass was the difference between having two 5 1/4" drivers in the LS50s vice having eight 6 1/2" drivers in the BP7000SC speakers. The eight 6 1/2" drivers are obviously moving much more air than a pair of 5 1/4" drivers. The same holds true for the tweeters. There is much more air coming off cymbals when they are struck as well as the sound of breathing and air moving through wind instruments with the BP7000SC speakers. That is a difference between four tweeters and two tweeters and bipolar vice front firing.

The dynamic envelope the LS50 has to play in is smaller than full range speakers which restricts the ultimate dynamic range and the SPL output you can listen to before the magic starts fading and you have to back off of the throttle. I suspect that many people will never find that point anyway. I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with the LS50s and if someone told me that I was going to be 'stuck' with them forever, I wouldn't cry about it as long as I still had my subs to use. The LS50s really are special speakers, but I have moved back to the 'big sound' of full-range speakers.

I have the R700 in for review now. Different beast.

I think your posts somewhat vindicates my view. They are GREAT speakers, within their limitations.

I think you now have found for your self they will not work in a big room as well as many other speakers, and that sub integration is
thorny at best.

We appreciate the update.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Are the LS-50's going up for sale?:D

Not yet Davey. I would want to sell the custom made stands with them. The stands weigh around 75 lbs each and the original boxes weren't going to survive a second trip to a new home so I canned them. Since I had my arm surgery in November, my right arm is still messed up and I'm not in a position to be messing with those stands now with regards to packing and shipping. So unless someone wants to come to my house and get a package deal and carry off everything, selling will be in the future.
 

Dre_J

Industry Expert
Mar 5, 2012
478
1
0
I think your posts somewhat vindicates my view. They are GREAT speakers, within their limitations.

Nice quote but what speaker doesn't have (observer perceived) limitations?

I think you now have found for your self they will not work in a big room as well as many other speakers, and that sub integration is
thorny at best.
An interesting conclusion that I did not come to. I thought mark stated they could (and did) work. It was more the total of the performance is currently preferred from his other speakers as I understand what he wrote. Sub integration is thorny for any speaker just as much as speaker integration into a room is thorny. Mark can bring those Ls-50 speakers to my house and I'm pretty sure I can get the subs to work just fine with them as much as I can with a number of other speakers.

Dre
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
3,970
7
0
San Diego
www.avrev.com
Nice quote but what speaker doesn't have (observer perceived) limitations?

An interesting conclusion that I did not come to. I thought mark stated they could (and did) work. It was more the total of the performance is currently preferred from his other speakers as I understand what he wrote. Sub integration is thorny for any speaker just as much as speaker integration into a room is thorny. Mark can bring those Ls-50 speakers to my house and I'm pretty sure I can get the subs to work just fine with them as much as I can with a number of other speakers.

Dre

I was being specific to the LS50.

It is a unique product. It's strengths are it's limitations. The singe 5.25 inch coax driver offers
coherence and purity, but with the penalty of limited SPL's, gravitas, and scale.

As far as subs, agree there YMMV. I actually have softened my view of how well a sub or subs will
work with the LS50 after hearing them with a sub at DaveyF's.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
I have the R700 in for review now. Different beast.

I think your posts somewhat vindicates my view. They are GREAT speakers, within their limitations.

I think you now have found for your self they will not work in a big room as well as many other speakers, and that sub integration is
thorny at best.

We appreciate the update.

Andre-I think we agree more than we disagree. The LS50s have definite limitations, but some people may never find them. I didn't find sub integration to be "thorny," as the subs did their job by blending in with the LS50s such that you didn't hear them as separate sources of sound. Where any "thorniness" comes in is if you try and run your subs outside of true subwoofer range and make them pull double duty as subs and woofers in order to augment the mid and upper bass of the LS50 (or any other speaker for that matter). I simply refuse to do that which exposes the lack of mid and upper bass that the LS50s can play in comparison to speakers that get it right. So, if we are talking about trying to make a pair of subs blend in at a high crossover point, I agree with your comment.
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
3,970
7
0
San Diego
www.avrev.com
Nice quote but what speaker doesn't have (observer perceived) limitations?

An interesting conclusion that I did not come to. I thought mark stated they could (and did) work. It was more the total of the performance is currently preferred from his other speakers as I understand what he wrote. Sub integration is thorny for any speaker just as much as speaker integration into a room is thorny. Mark can bring those Ls-50 speakers to my house and I'm pretty sure I can get the subs to work just fine with them as much as I can with a number of other speakers.

Dre

I will add that coax driver in my Thiel CS2.4 is another league. It is more refined. Now remember it costs 4x what the LS50 does.
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
3,970
7
0
San Diego
www.avrev.com
Andre-I think we agree more than we disagree. The LS50s have definite limitations, but some people may never find them. I didn't find sub integration to be "thorny," as the subs did their job by blending in with the LS50s such that you didn't hear them as separate sources of sound. Where any "thorniness" comes in is if you try and run your subs outside of true subwoofer range and make them pull double duty as subs and woofers in order to augment the mid and upper bass of the LS50 (or any other speaker for that matter). I simply refuse to do that which exposes the lack of mid and upper bass that the LS50s can play in comparison to speakers that get it right. So, if we are talking about trying to make a pair of subs blend in at a high crossover point, I agree with your comment.

As I have noted, I have softened my view concerning using subs with the LS50. It worked well enough at DaveyF's.

I think most folks, as you have, WILL find the LS50's limitations in a large room. In a small room..no way.

A speaker suitable for a larger room will not have qualifiers, such as "they will work great as long as you don't push them too hard etc".
 

Dre_J

Industry Expert
Mar 5, 2012
478
1
0
I will add that coax driver in my Thiel CS2.4 is another league. It is more refined. Now remember it costs 4x what the LS50 does.

That's understandable. Thanks for sharing.

I've found the 2.4, 2.4se, 2.7 and 3.7 to have coax drivers that are somewhat more clinical sounding (or some would say detailed) than the Ls-50. The Thiel coax in those speakers are limited in the lower frequency range by design for the bass driver so it's not really a semi-full-range coax. And at times the bass drivers have been unable to keep up or sound as integrated in some cases (not all) that I've observed them.

I would have thought the more appropriate Thiel model for performance comparison to the Ls-50 would have been the SCS4.

Dre
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
3,970
7
0
San Diego
www.avrev.com
That's understandable. Thanks for sharing.

I've found the 2.4, 2.4se, 2.7 and 3.7 to have coax drivers that are somewhat more clinical sounding (or some would say detailed) than the Ls-50. The Thiel coax in those speakers are limited in the lower frequency range by design for the bass driver so it's not really a semi-full-range coax. And at times the bass drivers have been unable to keep up or sound as integrated in some cases (not all) that I've observed them.

I would have thought the more appropriate Thiel model for performance comparison to the Ls-50 would have been the SCS4.

Dre

The coax driver in the Thiels is of a different material, and to my ears offers more delicacy. Clinical
is not the word I would use at all. I have a serious distaste for clinical presentations and I live with these speakers
day in day out, and I don't think they qualify as such. They DO need a lot of break in, and that is why some come
away with different impression. Out of the box they can sound a bit tight.

Boy, I did not hear ANY of discontinuity in the bass in any of the speakers you mentioned..I have not heard the 2.7 yet.

Shows you how subjective this is.

True about the SCs4.
 
Last edited:

Dre_J

Industry Expert
Mar 5, 2012
478
1
0
The coax driver in the Thiels is of a different material, and to my ears offers more delicacy. Clinical
is not the word I would use at all. I have a serious distaste for clinical presentations and I live with these speakers
day in day out, and I don't think they qualify as such. They DO need a lot of break in, and that is why some come
away with different impression. Out of the box they can sound a bit tight.

Boy, I did not hear ANY of discontinuity in the bass in any of the speakers you mentioned..I have not heard the 2.7 yet.

Shows you how subjective this is.

True about the SCs4.

Outside the SCS4 comment, I think you missed or took pretty far out of context with sweeping generalizations most of my comments but it's ok.

Dre
 

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