New MSB Diamond Dac Select 60k

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
1,387
450
Hey guys. There is a new msb diamond dac. 60k. All options included. Has galaxy clock as well.

Al
 

Bassfeen

New Member
Dec 10, 2013
4
0
0
Asia
Hey guys. There is a new msb diamond dac. 60k. All options included. Has galaxy clock as well.

Al



Its the same as the normal Diamond except with Warranty and some form of upgrade guarantee I don't understand, The hardware is same, The case is different and parts hand selected. Everything else is the same so when they claim upgrade guarantee technically any diamond series will be upgradable.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
1,387
450
In fact signature and up are. What I did read is about hand picking the diamond dac chips. I think what this means is pick of the litter spec wise. So it should perform above diamond . The trinity dac uses the pcm1704 and hand picks only the ones that meet there better than spec ,s as sold. So in doing so they overall have a dac with specs better than the chips production spec
 

audioblazer

Member Sponsor
May 13, 2010
765
204
1,605
Malaysia
Does it mean a specific MSB Diamond may not sound the same as another MSB Diamond because the parts are not specially selected & measured ?
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
1,387
450
Yes exactly. It's the best of the best production . Clearly going after the top slot in marketing . What I really wonder is if this top of the crop can be discriminated against the stock diamond. I presently have a platinum plus and UMT plus.
I have auditioned the diamond , but as there is difference I'm not so sure I liked it. However I have the galaxy clock in mine.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
1,387
450
yes this is strictly play money . its a worst investment than a car, but you get too use it more.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
It is actually pretty smart. Both MSB DAC chips and clocks are custom designed and build. So let's say they order a batch of chips and clocks to build 100 Diamond DACs. First you measure all the chips and clocks and throw out those that are out of tolerance (business as usual - you don't pay the manufacturer). Prior to the arrival of the "Diamond Select", you would then simply assemble Diamond DACs using these pieces. To build the Select, all you have to do is is take your measurements, pick say the top 10% best measuring DAC Chips and clocks, and build a batch of "Selects". Cost of goods sold does not go up one penny, but gross margin on the "select" probably tripples. Very clever!

This practice is actually pervasive in race car engine industry. Most racing competitions prescribe a certain type of standard engine. The statistical outliers that produce a few extra HPs command a big premium, because they can be the difference between winning a race and coming in second.
 

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 15, 2012
2,007
253
1,170
Poland
DAC chip manufacturers (Burr Brown, Philips) have been doing that for almost 30 years.

When Philips debuted the TDA1541 DAC back in the 80s, they were selling it as a regular, S1 (single crown) and S2 (double crown) selection. The later, hand selected from the thousands produced, had progressively lower THD+N figures and came with a big price premium over a standard one.

Same with Burr Brown, who for years have been selling the chips in regular, J and K selection.

MSB, beeing a (discrete) DAC manufacturer as well, can do the same. The question remains though, what production level thay have, as that will have a direct influence on the selection they are able to make (it is easier to find a one very good DAC among 10000 chips available, than among say 10).
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
DAC chip manufacturers (Burr Brown, Philips) have been doing that for almost 30 years.

When Philips debuted the TDA1541 DAC back in the 80s, they were selling it as a regular, S1 (single crown) and S2 (double crown) selection. The later, hand selected from the thousands produced, had progressively lower THD+N figures and came with a big price premium over a standard one.

Same with Burr Brown, who for years have been selling the chips in regular, J and K selection.

MSB, beeing a (discrete) DAC manufacturer as well, can do the same. The question remains though, what production level thay have, as that will have a direct influence on the selection they are able to make (it is easier to find a one very good DAC among 10000 chips available, than among say 10).

I suspect they produce small batches of chips and clocks (100 - 1000) and the variance in the sample is small, so the performance difference between say the best 10% and average will be small. I would be interested in a double blind A/B between the standard and the select version of the Diamond....
 

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 15, 2012
2,007
253
1,170
Poland
I wonder why they did not disclose the phase noise (or jitter) figures for the new 'hand selected' clock. They were wery upfront about those figures for Galaxy Femto and Femto 140 clocks (77 and 140fs respectively). Is that 10, 50 or maybe only 75fs ?

I suspect they produce small batches of chips and clocks (100 - 1000) and the variance in the sample is small, so the performance difference between say the best 10% and average will be small. I would be interested in a double blind A/B between the standard and the select version of the Diamond....

I would be VERY surprised if they were able to manufacture a batch of 50 Galaxy Femto Clocks, not to menton 100 or 1000. Still, they can order XO is thousands and measure each and every one (that is what ar-T is doing for other manufacturers).
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
DAC chip manufacturers (Burr Brown, Philips) have been doing that for almost 30 years.

When Philips debuted the TDA1541 DAC back in the 80s, they were selling it as a regular, S1 (single crown) and S2 (double crown) selection. The later, hand selected from the thousands produced, had progressively lower THD+N figures and came with a big price premium over a standard one.

Same with Burr Brown, who for years have been selling the chips in regular, J and K selection.

MSB, beeing a (discrete) DAC manufacturer as well, can do the same. The question remains though, what production level thay have, as that will have a direct influence on the selection they are able to make (it is easier to find a one very good DAC among 10000 chips available, than among say 10).

We also have cases where this selection is not needed, such as UltraAnalog that carried extreme measurements on the DAC and hand trimmed each DAC, or topologies that rely on processing to overcome small manufacturing non accuracies , such as the ring DAC or the 1 bit DAC.

I feel that a manufacturer choosing to use his "rejects" :( in his own equipment is firing his foot from a marketing point of view.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
I feel that a manufacturer choosing to use his "rejects" :( in his own equipment is firing his foot from a marketing point of view.

this is a big misrepresentation of what they do. The rejects are out. The units within tolerance / specs are in, and the units with superior specs go into the premium models. Nothing fishy about this practice IMO.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
I wonder why they did not disclose the phase noise (or jitter) figures for the new 'hand selected' clock. They were wery upfront about those figures for Galaxy Femto and Femto 140 clocks (77 and 140fs respectively). Is that 10, 50 or maybe only 75fs ?



I would be VERY surprised if they were able to manufacture a batch of 50 Galaxy Femto Clocks, not to menton 100 or 1000. Still, they can order XO is thousands and measure each and every one (that is what ar-T is doing for other manufacturers).

Strictly a function of the standard deviation in the sample and the percentage that makes it into the premium models. I suspect the difference will be small, but I could be wrong of course.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
1,387
450
This is true all of it. I am thinking of upgrading
My DAC to diamond. But how to hear the difference
From one to the other. When I went to audition the diamond
It's not my setup a big disadvantage already.
And furthermore I did not like WILSON alexia either.
I will as for a direct comparison though
Like an a/b. as for this select I agree it's a smart move
Cream of the crop so to speak. But as you sated how would you know if not playing
Both side by side.
Al
 

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 15, 2012
2,007
253
1,170
Poland
We also have cases where this selection is not needed, such as UltraAnalog that carried extreme measurements on the DAC and hand trimmed each DAC, or topologies that rely on processing to overcome small manufacturing non accuracies , such as the ring DAC or the 1 bit DAC.

You can still select from those you have 'hand trimmed' :)

But that I belive was an ancient technology of making multi bit DACs, used before Burr Brown found out how to laser trim the chipsets. Laser trimming is far more accurate than any 'hand trimming'. And yet - you can still select the better examples out of laser trimmed chips !
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
this is a big misrepresentation of what they do. The rejects are out. The units within tolerance / specs are in, and the units with superior specs go into the premium models. Nothing fishy about this practice IMO.

You can call it a misrepresentation, but I would never buy an unit using a "non selected" component knowing that the people being able to pay about 40% more get a better unit, specially if the equipment costs above $40k . IMHO, in high-end people can not afford to say openly that some components are just "more in" than others. Perhaps we are misrepresenting the differences between the two units, but it is what their marketing suggests.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) Laser trimming is far more accurate than any 'hand trimming'. And yet - you can still select the better examples out of laser trimmed chips !

I disagree with this aspect. Laser trimming resistors can be more economical and fashionable than hand trimming, but according to laws of association of resistances I can not see how it is more accurate. As an example considering exact values, if you put a 10M resistor in parallel with a 1K you get a 999.9 ohm resistor.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
You can call it a misrepresentation, but I would never buy an unit using a "non selected" component knowing that the people being able to pay about 40% more get a better unit, specially if the equipment costs above $40k . IMHO, in high-end people can not afford to say openly that some components are just "more in" than others. Perhaps we are misrepresenting the differences between the two units, but it is what their marketing suggests.

May be this is just semantics. Of course the clocks and DAC chips going into a standard DAC are not "selected". They are custom designed, spec'ed and made to order, and as long as they are within tolerance they go into the DAC. The only selection is the QA process of throwing out the rejects that are out of tolerance. I don;t see the problem with that.
 

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,189
1,387
450
I agree edor, its the best of the best syndrome. if you want to be an elitist its there for you, and you are above all else.
as we all want the best there is a point for some , like me where its close enough. i chose the galaxy clock with a platinum.
im sure most do not choose it this way.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing