Subwoofer Crossover Frequency and Top To Bottom Sound Improvement

Mobiusman

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May 24, 2010
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For the past 9 months I have been on a tear making changes all over my system and fortunately producing benefits that have put a huge smile on my face and an equally huge dent in my bank account. As I come to the end of the line to this protracted session of audio tweaking I would like to share one of the most dramatic changes that I have made in a long time, and it was free, and in retrospect obvious.

This simple change that should have been obvious, but wasn't to me despite more than 30 years of mating various subwoofers with various speakers that I was rolling off naturally, has to do with changing the crossover frequency of my twin JL 113 subwoofers and the need for minor phase control adjustments to try to match them optimally to Martin Logan Montis speakers. My ML's are supposed to roll off naturally around 29Hz (like a Summit X with only one front firing woofer and no down firing woofer to muddy things up), but I was recommended to set the crossover frequency to my JL around 38-40 hz, which is where they have been set for almost a year producing what I thought was quite impressive bass. As a somewhat seasoned listener and one who has listened incredibly critically during all of my changes during the past 9 months, including more than $50k of Shunyata and MIT cables, PC's and power distribution products, the addition a Spectral 260 amp, a Meitner DAC and new CD transports, I have become very attuned to subtle changes in bass attack, phase, harmony, etc.

So after I got done with the latest changes (new dedicated 20A power circuits for the amp, subs, and the front end components all with a dedicated 8' ground pole separate from the rest of the house, Shunyata outlets, retubing my BAT preamp) it was time to sit down and see what all of the time, effort and money produced at the hopefully final stage of tweaking. It is important for you to know that my JL's are in the same planes as the ML's, so it is very easy to obtain cohesion with the ML powered sub and electrostatic panel that is not possible if they are set back as is usually the case.

While my sound was great, the bass amongst the best I have heard at any price, something was wrong around 30-45 Hz, mostly a tiny bit of muddiness that was not present at any other frequency. Then the obvious hit me, try dropping the crossover point on the JL's so that there would be less overlap in the area where I was hearing muddiness. I dropped the crossover point from 38 to 32 Hz and the bass instantly became substantially tighter, but a bit short on the output, so I raised the woofer volume at most a db. Now the bass was the best I had ever had with regard to cohesiveness of the bass coming from the JL's, the ML powered woofer and the ML screens. The leading edge and attack were excellent, but something told me there was more improvement to be had.

I am pretty good at setting phase between subs and speakers and thought that what sounded best to me with too much overlap between subs and speakers might not be the best setting with the lowered crossover point and less frequency overlap. A mere 5 degree reduction in phase produced such a dramatic change in sound, instantly obvious, even way off axis, that I could have never predicted, although in retrospect is what physics would dictate. The phase shift not only cleaned up the mating of JL and ML bass as predicted, it also cleaned up the ML screens top to bottom to a magnitude that I would have been pleased to achieve after spending $5k on a some component. The screens were more articulate, smoother and most important, more realistic than I had ever heard them sound. Perhaps most interesting, the typical sound that I have associated with all ML's, especially the 4 pairs that I have owned over the years, was undetectable.

So as I hopefully make my last post of the many I have made during the past 9 months of my most recent tweaking phase, I am reminded that what makes the sound of my system so engaging is not primarily the components, but how they are set up and the attention to subtle details, especially the obvious ones that are clearly delineated by physics.
 

Al M.

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This simple change that should have been obvious, but wasn't to me despite more than 30 years of mating various subwoofers with various speakers that I was rolling off naturally, has to do with changing the crossover frequency of my twin JL 113 subwoofers and the need for minor phase control adjustments to try to match them optimally to Martin Logan Montis speakers. My ML's are supposed to roll off naturally around 29Hz (like a Summit X with only one front firing woofer and no down firing woofer to muddy things up), but I was recommended to set the crossover frequency to my JL around 38-40 hz, which is where they have been set for almost a year producing what I thought was quite impressive bass.
[...]

While my sound was great, the bass amongst the best I have heard at any price, something was wrong around 30-45 Hz, mostly a tiny bit of muddiness that was not present at any other frequency. Then the obvious hit me, try dropping the crossover point on the JL's so that there would be less overlap in the area where I was hearing muddiness. I dropped the crossover point from 38 to 32 Hz and the bass instantly became substantially tighter, but a bit short on the output, so I raised the woofer volume at most a db. Now the bass was the best I had ever had with regard to cohesiveness of the bass coming from the JL's, the ML powered woofer and the ML screens. The leading edge and attack were excellent,

Yes, that makes sense. The crossover of my REL Storm III subwoofer is set way below the roll-off frequency of my Ensemble Reference minimonitors. These are linear only down to 55-60 Hz, and my subwoofer crossover is set at 41 Hz. I suppose whlie the main speakers slowly roll off, the subwoofer equally slowly sets in above 41 Hz, and the transition is flawless and not the least bit muddy. If I set the subwoofer crossover higher, I tend to get exaggerated midbass. At the current setting the bass transition appears to be linear, with no dip in the transition either. My bass is also amongst the best that I have heard at any price, while it may miss just the lowest few Hz (depending on the situation; I do hear and feel a deep black, literally (wood-)floor-shaking low organ tone at the beginning of my recording of Bruckner's Te Deum). The lack of perhaps the very lowest bass may also be a function of my only moderately large room size (24 by 12 by 9 feet), while on the other hand such a somewhat smaller room also may make bass set-up considerably easier than in a really large room (for starters, my REL Storm III probably could not efficiently power a much larger room than mine).

I do set the subwoofer volume variably, depending on the recording. The output of low bass varies too much between recordings to have it as a static setting, in my view. Yet I suppose I have more freedom in that respect than in a situation where the main speakers reach down considerably lower in frequency than my minimonitors do.

So as I hopefully make my last post of the many I have made during the past 9 months of my most recent tweaking phase, I am reminded that what makes the sound of my system so engaging is not primarily the components, but how they are set up and the attention to subtle details, especially the obvious ones that are clearly delineated by physics.

Yes, subtle details are important. A few months ago I experimented with seating position. Moving my seat forward about 4 inches gave a much more coherent soundstage.

Congratulations, Russ, on your system set-up, it sounds exciting. And the Spectral DMA 260 is an excellent amplifier, as i could also experience in my own system. Yet instead of switching amps, I went the route of upgrading my tube amps with massive external BorderPatrol power supplies, an upgrade that turned out to be spectacular beyond expectations; in a larger room and with other speakers I might still go with the Spectral.
 
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DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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Finally, eh! Enjoy the music!

I prefer to cross over 1/2 - 1 octave above the mains -3 dB point if possible. Panels tend to lack dynamic range for deep bass and have high distortion when driven hard down low (not necessarily applicable to your model, but I have found this to be true with conventional speakers as well). Matching phase at the crossover frequency is critical to provide the best sound. You can get pretty close using an SPL meter and playing a test tone at the crossover frequency. Put the SPL meter at the listening position (on a sturdy tripod) and adjust the sub's phase to maximize the sound level. I use impulse response to dial mine in, but that takes a measurement system. Once you get the phase matched, chances are the actual crossover frequency is less important.
 

GaryProtein

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It seems to me that if an active crossover was used instead of relying on the settings on the JL subwoofer, you would have better/easier control over the mains fading out and the subwoofer fading in instead of having overlapping frequencies of the mains and sub. You would also have easily reproducible settings and control over the volume of each. YMMV.
 

Al M.

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This simple change that should have been obvious, but wasn't to me despite more than 30 years of mating various subwoofers with various speakers that I was rolling off naturally, has to do with changing the crossover frequency of my twin JL 113 subwoofers and the need for minor phase control adjustments to try to match them optimally to Martin Logan Montis speakers. My ML's are supposed to roll off naturally around 29Hz (like a Summit X with only one front firing woofer and no down firing woofer to muddy things up), but I was recommended to set the crossover frequency to my JL around 38-40 hz, which is where they have been set for almost a year producing what I thought was quite impressive bass.

Russ,

given my experience with subwoofer cross-over settings that are non-overlapping with the main speakers' roll-off, have you tried to lower the crossover even further to, for example, 25 Hz?

There is a school of thought that takes the non-overlapping thing so serious that some have suggested to use a sub crossover setting of just 28 Hz with the tiny Rogers LS3/LS5 minimonitors in the system! While I believe this goes too far, the area is definitely worth experimenting in further.
 

James63

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When you guys say crossover are you actually using a crossover? I have done it with and without a crossover and there is no comparison. The crossover is much better than trying to pass under the mains without one. I would also argue using a crossover you can set your crossover point MUCH higher and get good sound.
 

rbbert

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When you guys say crossover are you actually using a crossover? I have done it with and without a crossover and there is no comparison. The crossover is much better than trying to pass under the mains without one. I would also argue using a crossover you can set your crossover point MUCH higher and get good sound.
The usual worry here is finding/using a crossover which will not adversely affect the sound quality of the main speakers and system.
 

mep

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When you guys say crossover are you actually using a crossover? I have done it with and without a crossover and there is no comparison. The crossover is much better than trying to pass under the mains without one. I would also argue using a crossover you can set your crossover point MUCH higher and get good sound.

At some point if you do this, your subwoofers turn into woofers.
 

Al M.

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The usual worry here is finding/using a crossover which will not adversely affect the sound quality of the main speakers and system.

Precisely. I never wanted to have an extra filter from my main speakers since i was worried about the liveliness of sound -- I am a sucker for microdynamics, and cannot tolerate anything that might compromise that (my experience with heavily filtered speakers is not too good). Thus I stayed subwoofer-less for quite a while until I read an article by Robert Harley in 2000 about the REL concept that does not employ any filtering of the main speakers but instead simply runs the subwoofer in parallel (I guess this concept has now caught on in a more general way). That article caused me to buy the REL and I have been happy ever since.
 

Al M.

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When you guys say crossover are you actually using a crossover? I have done it with and without a crossover and there is no comparison. The crossover is much better than trying to pass under the mains without one.

The asssessment of which is better will depend on
1) the system
2) your listening preferences, which aspects of sound reproduction you personally find the most important.

I just don't believe there is a "one-fits-all" answer. If for example I wanted to make sure my main speakers can play as loud as possible, I'd filter them. But that is not my highest priority (and in my room my listening levels are more limited by following NIOSH recommendations for maximum daily exposure to sound levels than by my willingness and ability to 'crank it up').
 

Mobiusman

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When it comes to audio, sometimes being too busy to tinker is a good thing because it forces one to acclimate to the last adjustment and reduces the "change is better" phenomena. As I was writing my original post on this thread 3 days ago about lowering crossover points with subs and then making compensatory phase adjustments, I was reminded of a phenomena that I am regularly reminded of when I make a major positive medication change with one my patients--if the change was a positive, would more change be even better?

So I did to my system what I do in the parallel situation with my patients, I lowered the crossover point even further and thus had to make another phase change. On one hand this does not make sense because phase setting between subs and speakers should be a function of physical placement, yet with shifting the crossover point, there is no doubt that a phase correction was necessary. How could this be? I believe the simple answer is psychoacoustics. As I reduced the mush of the sub/speaker overlap, what sounds with phase best also changes.

This reminds me of another lesson I have had to relearn over the years - just cause I think it is "so" means little. With high end audio, what is most enjoyable is frequently different than what we predict, probably because there are so many factors that influence the sound that we overlook or under estimate the impact of specific factors that truly have a major role in the end sound

After several days of no change as I sorted out some time sensitive issues, last night I played once again. This time I lowered the crossover frequency of my JL 113's down to 29 Hz, boosted output a bit, and then had to change the phase again to obtain the best (tightest and most cohesive sound). Once again these changes altered the entire audible spectrum, not just the bass. I finally settled on 30 Hz as the crossover point for the subs to mate with ML's rolling off naturally. With the phase adjustment, I now have the absolute best separation, not to mention the most convincing and cohesive bass, I have ever had, even at low levels. I can't wait till I return from a trip for the next change.
 

RBFC

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Russ,

You can check your phase setting by the "180 phase" test, where you reverse the speaker connections (red & black) at the speaker, then play a test tone at the crossover frequency. The setting on your JLs that produces the least sound will be the best phase match. This null test is pretty easy to perform and gives reasonable results, so you can compare your by-ear settings.

Lee
 

rbbert

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Wouldn't this be the same as leaving the speakers in phase and listening for the setting that produces the loudest sound?
 

GaryProtein

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YES, but the ear is more sensitive to when it hears the quietest sound.
 

rbbert

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Just wondering, because either way I got the same result ;)
 

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