Anyone compare MSB sound to dCS Vivaldi or Scarlatti sound? Please share impressions.
- Thread starter caesar
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And I've moved from a Paganini to the MSB Signature, and now Diamond IV DAC.
I agree with Adam, adding that the MSB is more dynamic and "live" too, with the dCS being more laid back.
alexandre
I listened to scarlatti and vivaldi at 2 different shops with 2 different systems, while listening to the msb at home and another place. IMHO the dcs is more neutral, smoother and faster than the msb, while the msb is on the warmer side and a bit sweeter in the midrange. I cant comment on the bass because I experienced too much bass with the msb in both my room and the other room, a bit boomy compared to the dcs scarlatti/vivaldi. But as I said, this is my humble opinion as there were 4 completely different systems with the rooms and kits.
Adam,
As far as I remember (I may be wrong) you were driving the amplifier directly from the DAC output - IMHO this an important aspect when referring to DACs sound type.
I've listened to all of these DACS and they all are fantastic. It comes down to the total system and preferences. With the right system, any of these DACS can present a very real sounding musical presentation. To say that any of these lack a solid bass foundation, dynamic verve or rhythmic drive is highly subjective and does not agree with my perceptions in the slightest. One person's "in your face" is another's "more laid back", truly it is system dependent.
SlowGEEZR,
I agree with you in general. I guess we are talking about good enough or the best we can achieve for our audio goals and taste.
But let's take that subjectively musical system that has dCS Scarlatti in it, and swap it out. If we swap it out for Playback Designs and play an SACD, it will have the above mentioned dynamic verve - at fraction of the price. Plug in the Boulder, also at a fraction of a price, and it will have a solid bass foundation that dCS lacks and those who have not tried the Boulder in their system could not imagine.
I am a big believer of synergy. But I think synergy is more applicable to amps/ speakers than digital. What we are talking about here is an $80K (at the time) 4 box stack. If dCS is "the best", as many of its fans believe, why can't dCS add just one more button to one of their 4 boxes that will adjust their digital filter to have more PRAT or more bass or more detail....
My impression is that dCS voices their gear by picking a certain sounding filter that they believe is right and then use their gravitas and marketing skills to push it as the ultimate digital achievement in high end. Presenting the user with the ability to select more than one filter would legitimize other sonic signatures and legitimize their competition who sound different.
Caesar,
How is this any different from any of the other ( Playback, MSB, etc.) groups you mentioned if we expand this to not just be about a digital filter (a very narrow part of the signal processing that goes on) but the signal processing in general be it in the digital or analog domain in these units?
I ask because they all do it.
Are you just saying you want more options from all of them to be able to "tailor" the sound they have chosen more to your liking?
Dre
May I ask where did your firm belief that a digital filter settings can have such a profound effect on SQ come from ?
I have owned several digital components that offered variable filter settigs (dCS Scarlatti, MSB DAC IV Diamond, Trinity DAC) and in my experience digital filter settings have only a very minor influence on SQ.
Caesar,
You are oversimplifying the whole issue of sound quality in high-end systems when you reduce it to solid bass foundation or dynamic verve. The actions of the filters do not change the the main sound characteristics of a DAC or CD player - I have them in the CD9, accessible using the remote, and it is not night and day- I agree on this point with Adam.
And IMHO the extreme quality of the DCS Vivaldi (debating the Scarlatti is interesting for those who own or owned it, but is not current state of the art) relies on showing all details and dynamics without artifacts, creating a more unfeigned view of the real performance. And no, the DCS Vivaldi sound quality is not due to marketing - in an appropriate system it manages to do thinks others can not dream about.
The best digital system I have owned in listening room was by far the Metronome Kalista/C2A - people tell me now that the Kalista ultimate /C8 is a big jump ...
Hi Dre,
Yes, it speaking to engineers I believe there are many more filter options that are out there discovered during R&D than are being exposed to the customer. Imagine it's late at night and you want to listen another 30 minutes. Wouldn't it be cool if you could you could pick the "Naim-like" filter on your player so you don't doze off? I have no doubt, based on my conversations, that dCS engineers can get their player to sound fairly close to a Naim via only a filter. So why not expose it to the customer?
To all others,
The reason I bring up the Scarlatti is that I have spend considerable hours with it. I have heard the Vivaldi a lot less, so I want to be fair. Vivaldi sounded scary real to me on a great recording in the Scaena room at RMAF and on a few other occasions. But as good as the Vivaldi may be, IMHO it gets destroyed by a $15K turntable.
Also I am not denying that parts used in the dac don't have a factor. Here's an interesting review of the MBL dac by the Stereophile show reporter/ Dagogo reviewer Jason Victor Serinus, which includes interesting voicing comments by Jurgen Reis:
http://dagogo.com/mbl-corona-c31-cd-player-review
I'm sorry, I will be persistent here and will ask my queston once again:
May I ask where did your firm belief that a digital filter settings can have such a profound effect on SQ come from ?
Are you a digital engineer with first hand experience in writing custom digital filters or maybe you have at least extensive listening experience which led you to those conclusions ? If so, what DACs with switchable digital filters have you tried ?
One of the benefit of audio shows and events is that you can run into the likes of Andrew Jones of TAD, the amp designer Vitus, and some of the best digital engineers. A lot of those guys are very real and down to earth, and I got a chance to discuss this subject with them.
I' asking since I have also talked to many digital engineers, working to the biggest hi-end names in the industry (including those who do not have time to attend the shows an leave that to their marketing guys) and never heard such a concept before. And I'm really interested in all things digital audio.
Andrew Jones and Ole Vitus are hardy digital engineers ... Talk to Martin Reynolds from dCS, Larry from MSB, Robert Watts from Chord/dpa or Michael Pflaumer from Berkeley - then you will be able to learn something relevant.
Andrew Jones and Ole Vitus are hardy digital engineers ... Talk to Martin Reynolds from dCS, Larry from MSB, Robert Watts from Chord/dpa or Michael Pflaumer from Berkeley - then you will be able to learn something relevant.
In this case, I actually spoke to guys from an elite digital company.
I think there is a chasm between what is done in an R&D lab by engineers and what is ultimately marketed and sold to a consumer (several boxes, clocks, power supplies, etc.,). Like you I am interested in finding out what that chasm contains...
Hmm not entirely sure,
listen to say MBL older and latest digital filters.
Ironically the newer DACs (still using older DAC chipsets) sound more lush/rich while being closer to flat at 20khz and measure much better in all ways.
Filters can make a big difference, but it comes down to how multiple options are implemented in a DAC, they will sound similar IF they use similar concept/type and only slightly changed coefficients, which is what many manufacturers do tbh to give the illusion of choice.
There is no getting away from the fact a slow roll-off filter focusing on time domain/ringing/knee will usually have a noticable FR droop that would have an audible effect, however there is more at work than just the FR as I appreciate you know, such as the level of alias rejection amongst other aspects.
Agree though all stages make an impact, but then it is interesting to see the traits of the latest AK implemented DAC/CDs, traits of those using ESS Sabre,etc.
Key is when some implement separate digital filters that are very different to the default ones, and this can have an effect as noticable as the analogue stages in DAC/CDs.
I would say context in the discussio is audible differences for each function (digital/analogue) rather than only one being applicable.
That said the latest dCS Vivaldi has I think 6 filter options, 2 specific for DSD?
Again would need to be looked at closely to see how they actually differ.
Cheers
Orb
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Caesar,
Well, should we also conclude than Naim engineers can can get their player to sound fairly close to a DCS Vivaldi via only filter? IMHO you are oversimplifying - the engineers must match the filter with the analog section, the DAC and power supply and it is the interaction between those parts that creates the sound characteristics of the player.
Well, I would love to know what is the $15k vinyl system that destroys the Vivaldi. I am a vinyl owner, and there are some aspects that I must acknowledge where the Vivaldi sounds better than the vinyl system. And you touched the point - it can sound scary real. BTW, this is not exclusive to the DCS - the top Metronome system did similar things in appropriate systems. All in my subjective opinion, of course.
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