Most disturbing audio experience of 2013

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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We had a thread on the best and worst audio moments of 2013 - this one should refer to the most disturbing moments of the finishing year.

For me it was helping in the setup of pair of Wilson Audio XLF's. I was invited to participate in such experiment in a great room, and as the XLFs were still on castors, we had a few hours to play freely. At a time I could take the command and I used a recording I usually like to use for test listening, as I could be at a the life performance of it - the Claudio Monteverdi Vespro della Beata Vergine, La Petite Bande directed by Sigiswald Kuijken. The XLF's had an impressive scale, performers seemed to be present in the room, the instruments were sounding great from the starting position. We started moving the speakers backwards, listening to the same voice in a track in repeat mode, about four inches every time. The differences were clear, and all at a sudden, in one spot the voice became real - the small intonations, the body, the decays and the timbre, it approached my memories of a life performance in a way I thought impossible. This effect overspread all over the stage and performers. We tried fine tuning, but any small movement over two inches would destroy this voice gradation and life effect. Unfortunately , this session was informal and there was no tape or markings in the ceiling, and we went on looking for other good positions without keeping a record of this one. As our experiment time was ending we tried to reposition the speaker in the best spot, but due to time constraints we could not find the place, and we had to leave without re-listening in the previous conditions. :(

What I find disturbing is that if it was not for this opportunity I would never have given the XLF the due credit - OK, it has all the typical attributes of great large speakers, but for a lover of vocal ancient music this re-creation in the optimum position was transcending - after I explained to other people what was so special in this voice, they were also fascinated. The second disturbing aspect is how critical is fine setup is such high-end systems - the extra points are very hard to get and absolutely metastable - once we get there you can not change anything. The third disturbing aspect is that one inch really matters. And the the real lesson (often forgotten, but not new) - is that we should always keep a good log book with objective details describing in full the positioning and conditions of a system - our memory will not remember it all.

BTW, that some day I decided to get a pair of Alexia's, that I had already listened to several times sounding very good. It was very disturbing for other reasons ...
 
Last edited:

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
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New York City
We had a thread on the best and worst audio moments of 2013 - this one should refer to the most disturbing moments of the finishing year.

For me it was helping in the setup of pair of Wilson Audio XLF's. I was invited to participate in such experiment in a great room, and as the XLFs were still on castors, we had a few hours to play freely. At a time I could take the command and I used a recording I usually like to use for test listening, as I could be at a the life performance of it - the Claudio Monteverdi Vespro della Beata Vergine, La Petite Bande directed by Sigiswald Kuijken. The XLF's had an impressive scale, performers seemed to be present in the room, the instruments were sounding great from the starting position. We started moving the speakers backwards, listening to the same voice in a track in repeat mode, about four inches every time. The differences were clear, and all at a sudden, in one spot the voice became real - the small intonations, the body, the decays and the timbre, it approached my memories of a life performance in a way I thought impossible. This effect overspread all over the stage and performers. We tried fine tuning, but any small movement over two inches would destroy this voice gradation and life effect. Unfortunately , this session was informal and there was no tape or markings in the ceiling, and we went on looking for other good positions without keeping a record of this one. As our experiment time was ending we tried to replace the speaker in the best spot, but due to time constraints we could not find the place, and we had to leave without re-listening in the previous conditions. :(

What I find disturbing is that if it was not for this opportunity I would never have given the XLF the due credit - OK, it has all the typical attributes of great large speakers, but for a lover of vocal ancient music this re-creation in the optimum position was transcending - after I explained to other people what was so special in this voice, they were also fascinated. The second disturbing aspect is how critical is fine setup is such high-end systems - the extra points are very hard to get and absolutely metastable - once we get there you can not change anything. The third disturbing aspect is that one inch really matters. And the the real lesson (often forgotten, but not new) - is that we should always keep a good log book with objective details describing in full the positioning and conditions of a system - our memory will not remember it all.

BTW, that some day I decided to get a pair of Alexia's, that I had already listened to several times sounding very good. It was very disturbing for other reasons ...

What happened to the Aida's? You still running the Alexia's with ARC?
 

microstrip

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What happened to the Aida's? You still running the Alexia's with ARC?

Myles,

The Aida's sounded great and marvelous in my room, but they did their best with borrowed equipment, and feeding them properly would be much more expensive than I could consider. Changing all the equipment (cables and may be source inclusive) would be a financial disaster - as a good friend really wanted the Aidas's the choice was obvious. And yes, the ARC REF150 sounds great with the Alexia - they really convey energy to room.

I know that there are some aspects where the Aida's were IMHO better than the Alexia - bass slam and airiness, but they were much less efficient than the Alexia's - they are 89, not 92 dB/W speakers. Although the published impedance looks nice, once you dial in the back firing units and touch the controls it becomes as bad as the Alexia's. I would have loved to try them with the Gryphon Mephisto, and perhaps Vlhalla2 or Odin, but the Aida's had taken all my audio budget ...
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Steve Williams should chime in here, IIRC he said 1/2" (or less.) in speaker placement and toe-in mattered significantly.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Most disturbing for me was having to gut out the floors and walls of my basement music room. In the end I said, remove all the plaster. I decided to have new retaining walls of the same thickness done using shotcrete then some waterproofing overkill. It is now a swinging pool in reverse. LOL. The good news is that the double walls are all up, the new flooring is in, I got to re-tweak the lighting and the treatments are now being refitted. I also got to upgrade the Romex and re-situate the dedicated COs.

Second most disturbing is bringing the back-up system to show and it not making it back because someone bought it. Not a bad problem to have but again I had to go down our line quite a bit just to listen to music. No analog either! THAT I think is the worst part of all of this!

Lastly, before Mother Nature came to give me a lesson in humility, my system was in that state of tune where I wanted to superglue everything in place. I have to start all over. Fortunately I DO have notes. :)
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Jack-I hope your room comes back better than ever.
 

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 15, 2012
2,011
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Poland
My most disturbing moment was trying the Trinity DAC in my system, which made my long lusted, 6 weeks old MSB DAC IV Diamond Plus sound broken in comparision. It was surprising and very disturbing at the same time, as I knew that I will be not able to enjoy the Diamond DAC anymore. I had no other choice but to buy the Trinity DAC.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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Most disturbing for me was the purchase of the Genesis G7.1f's. Even after 6 months I wasn't completely satisfied with how they sounded in my space, but I kept at it. A few more months passed and still I wasn't getting what I thought I should. I was actually considering their sale as I became frustrated, so I left it for awhile and then bingo. All of a sudden things started to meld together, and then when I introduced some treatments that became more apparent.

I'm still not 100% satisfied with the sound, but that's not because of the speaker.....it's a few upgrades in the chain that will get me there. I'm absolutely hooked on the detail and the coherence, but I want a slightly warmer presentation. I see more power and tubes as being a part of that.
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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And maybe a better preamp ;)
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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Kingsrule

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Feb 3, 2011
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We had a thread on the best and worst audio moments of 2013 - this one should refer to the most disturbing moments of the finishing year.

For me it was helping in the setup of pair of Wilson Audio XLF's. I was invited to participate in such experiment in a great room, and as the XLFs were still on castors, we had a few hours to play freely. At a time I could take the command and I used a recording I usually like to use for test listening, as I could be at a the life performance of it - the Claudio Monteverdi Vespro della Beata Vergine, La Petite Bande directed by Sigiswald Kuijken. The XLF's had an impressive scale, performers seemed to be present in the room, the instruments were sounding great from the starting position. We started moving the speakers backwards, listening to the same voice in a track in repeat mode, about four inches every time. The differences were clear, and all at a sudden, in one spot the voice became real - the small intonations, the body, the decays and the timbre, it approached my memories of a life performance in a way I thought impossible. This effect overspread all over the stage and performers. We tried fine tuning, but any small movement over two inches would destroy this voice gradation and life effect. Unfortunately , this session was informal and there was no tape or markings in the ceiling, and we went on looking for other good positions without keeping a record of this one. As our experiment time was ending we tried to reposition the speaker in the best spot, but due to time constraints we could not find the place, and we had to leave without re-listening in the previous conditions. :(

What I find disturbing is that if it was not for this opportunity I would never have given the XLF the due credit - OK, it has all the typical attributes of great large speakers, but for a lover of vocal ancient music this re-creation in the optimum position was transcending - after I explained to other people what was so special in this voice, they were also fascinated. The second disturbing aspect is how critical is fine setup is such high-end systems - the extra points are very hard to get and absolutely metastable - once we get there you can not change anything. The third disturbing aspect is that one inch really matters. And the the real lesson (often forgotten, but not new) - is that we should always keep a good log book with objective details describing in full the positioning and conditions of a system - our memory will not remember it all.

BTW, that some day I decided to get a pair of Alexia's, that I had already listened to several times sounding very good. It was very disturbing for other reasons ...

One inch makes a difference with Wilson's? Setting up over 10 pairs in my personal systems over the years it's really 1/4 inch or less.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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One inch makes a difference with Wilson's? Setting up over 10 pairs in my personal systems over the years it's really 1/4 inch or less.

Is it fair to assume that the reported major impact of using Dirac live is by taking the headache out of this search for the positioning holy grail, and just achieving the same effect through time/phase alignment applying DRC? Little comfort for the vinyl crowd, but for digital only guys a heaven send....
 

Kingsrule

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Feb 3, 2011
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For me the most disturbing was putting the Shunyata Alpha digital PC in my system.

On my dedicated 20 amp line feeding a Meridian 818v2 it is transcending and actually scary.
I'm afraid to touch it in fear of losing it's magic! (Joking but you get the point!!!)
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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For me the most disturbing was putting the Shunyata Alpha digital PC in my system.

On my dedicated 20 amp line feeding a Meridian 818v2 it is transcending and actually scary.
I'm afraid to touch it in fear of losing it's magic! (Joking but you get the point!!!)

Good point, the scary part of inserting a cable anywhere in the chain and experiences major improvements, is the realization of how much information gets lost "in transition/translation", making a strong case to pursue shortest possible signal paths, keep information in the digital domain as much as possible, and avoid conversions.
 

es347

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Apr 20, 2010
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"The third disturbing aspect is that one inch really matters."....boy does it ever! :)
 

JackD201

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Jack-I hope your room comes back better than ever.

Thanks Mark. So do I. It's still the same team that did the first one so the odds are in my favor. :D
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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"The third disturbing aspect is that one inch really matters."....boy does it ever! :)

<deleted>

Hahahahahahahahha!
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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I think I will have to disagree with the consensus reached in this thread. Casual listeners should not be concerned about anything less than an 1 inch. I know it pains many trained in exactitude in all areas of life. But if most people here, who have audiophile-trained ears, heard a Bose, they would be able to assess its virtues and weaknesses without analyzing over minute details of the setup. Some messiness is ok when you are trying to figure out what you like. Absolute precision is not necessary to get a broad grasp and the outlines of the sonic signature the designer has intended.

HOWEVER, once you find what you like, go for the exactitude!!!! Spend hours setting it up. Bring friends. Attach a flashlight to your dog and make him stay, shining on the exact spot so you can see better. Hire an acoustician to help!

The reality is that this is a subjective hobby. There is no system that will be setup by someone else to our tastes - rigorous accuracy is relative to one's taste, experiences, and how one’s references were formed. As a result, an audio store manager, who is usually an experienced audiophile, and the Wilson rep will set up the Wilson speaker in different ways using their favorite recordings. Bring in Dave Wilson, and he will further tweak the setup, based on his belief, tastes, and experiences. However, your individual favorites may have been eq’d in different ways. Bring in the measurement guys, and they will have a whole other perspective…And when they all leave, you will adjust the setup to make yourself happy.
Who’s right? One’s man’s sterility is another man’s absolute truth. In subjective matters, however, there is no single version of truth, and its pursuit is a distraction. The reality is both beautiful and ugly depending on the perspective. Fortunately, a lot of guys are trying different things and are willing to share their experiences. Thanks to the diversion of opinions, we get really good conversations going, which creates further insights, and we are brought closer to the reality that the majestic picture someone is seeing is just a bunch of haphazard brush strokes to many of us.

How many guys get up and get out of a room at an audio show when you are completely enthralled by a system and think it’s the greatest system on earth at that time?
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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Most disturbing for me was realizing how badly engineered the Pass XP-25 phono is in terms of magnetic-field isolation - virtually non-existent, with the board wrapped in simple aluminum casing (aluminum has permeability equal to air's - virtually =1). I found out the hard way that users' choices to install this unit far far away from anything else is an absolute requirement; my alternate solution will be described in the hum thread I started, soon.
 

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