Added second 20 amp line for amps

BlueFox

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Monday I had a second dedicated 20 amp line installed for my amps. Prior, I had a Shunyata Triton, for the source gear, plugged into a bottom outlet, and a Shunyata Cyclops, for the amps, plugged into the top outlet of a dedicated line. At this point, I was very happy with my two channel system. It was sounding great, and while I know everything can be upgraded, and/or tweaked, ad infinitum, I have been content for a few months now.

Not any more.

This second line has given a performance increase was beyond what I was expecting. After the electrician finished, and I turned it on, I could immediately tell it was better. Much better. Even cold, it was sounding great. The electrician even commented it sounded like the players were in the room, although he might have been just applying a little salesmanship.

One thing I was a bit nervous about was ground loop, hum, etc. The first thing I did after the amps had a few seconds to charge was turn up the volume and get next to each speaker. Zero noise, dead silence. Good. So from here on out it was let the music play, let the new circuit get acclimated to the house, and listen to the music, and it just got better and better as the night wore on. As the gear meshed, the soundstage became more integrated with a much more horizontal layered effect. It is uncanny. All in all, the music seems more relaxed, as if it requires less effort for the amps. In fact, at my usual settings, it does seem a bit louder, but that might just be because it is clearer, with a quieter background.

One thing is certain. I was literally just laughing over and over last night at how good it sounded. A song would play, I would smile, and then just break out laughing. To me, that was impressive. I just love how things done with this hobby can have such positive effects on my mood. At some point this upgrade will become the new norm, but I hope this does not wear off too soon. However, when it does I will be ready and add a Shunyata Typhon to the Triton used for my source gear. One thing though, in so far as return on investment, this has to be one of the better upgrades. For a few hundred dollars, it is allowing everything to work quite well together. Electronics, cables, speakers, and power are acting as one, and creating a beautiful sound.

To be honest, I think I get more pleasure from power and cable upgrades than from gear upgrades. I expect better gear to create better sound, but, even now, I am still amazed at the improvements from power and cabling. I have said this more than once either here or on other forums, but I now consider power and cabling to be the foundation of a system. A solid foundation allows modest gear to perform at its best, and allows better gear to perform at its potential right from the start. Without a solid foundation, it is impossible for any gear to perform anywhere near its potential.
 

mep

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I have said this more than once either here or on other forums, but I now consider power and cabling to be the foundation of a system.

I agree they are important elements, but I strongly disagree that they are the foundation of a system. The foundation starts with the room and from there your speakers and gear are the next in importance. You can have great power and cables, but if your room is bad sounding and you don't have good components, it really doesn't matter about your power and cables.
 

GaryProtein

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BlueFox

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I agree they are important elements, but I strongly disagree that they are the foundation of a system. The foundation starts with the room and from there your speakers and gear are the next in importance. You can have great power and cables, but if your room is bad sounding and you don't have good components, it really doesn't matter about your power and cables.


I guess we have to agree to disagree. I used to be naive about power and cabling, but now I know better.
 

dallasjustice

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What mep is saying is that power matters. But once you've dealt with the room, you won't know how much or little power matters. I personally use a torus rm60 which can deliver dynamic current north of 100 amps. I can plug all components into it and it has 3 phases. It's sweet. But it still doesn't come close to what a properly set up room does. That's the foundation for any 2 channel system. There are no exceptions.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I used to be naive about power and cabling, but now I know better.
 

treitz3

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Hello all and good morning to you. I guess this depends on what one considers a "foundation" within a system. By definition, the foundation is an underlying basis or principle for something. In this case, the proper powering and cabling of a stereo system. Assuming one already has gear that isn't your average, ordinary Best Buy or HH Gregg HTIB and the source isn't some kind of I-pod or mp3 player, then one can assume that the stereo produces sound on a level better than most stereos out there. Assuming one has upgraded that very gear and swapped equipment in and out to find the best synergy and performance factors they could achieve, then one could probably assume that the system [if done right] is within the top 20 percent of home stereos across the land.

Now, if we assume that acoustical treatment has been installed, the room acoustics measured and optimized, vibration isolation has been addressed throughout the system including tube dampers, mods having been performed, upgrading the already upgraded gear along with every other conceivable optimization done besides the power and cabling, then at this point, one can say without reservation that the foundation of said system has not been addressed. While I may be mistaken, it is this foundation that I believe BlueFox speaks of. Not the beginner system to where the basic "foundation", if you will, of adequate gear or gear matching should be top priority.

I can say with complete certainty and experience that my system can sound stellar or it can sound like a run of the mill system. Take out the things I have done to achieve pure power, take out all power cords, speaker cables, interconnects along with other upgraded things along this path and my system has now been brought to its knees. It will become "just a stereo system", not worthy of what I would consider high fidelity. Now, you add back in these things [the foundation, if you will] and all of a sudden the system transforms into something any audiophile could quickly respect, experience and enjoy. It becomes a true high fidelity system.

It's not just the lower noise floor, the lower the frequencies dig with more visceral impact at the same volume, the accuracy of instruments, the natural roll off or decay, the separation of images, the sound stage, width, depth, perceived height or texture. It's everything combined when adding the foundation of proper power and cabling that can transform a properly assembled and carefully chosen 2 channel system into a true high fidelity system. It is this foundation, if you will, that I think BlueFox speaks of. The difference can be absolutely incredible.

Tom
 

mep

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Tom-I think you read far more into what the OP said than what he really said and I think you are wrong. Go back and re-read what he said. Cables and power are important, but they are icing on the cake and surely not the cake. The room is is the foundation to the system and it alone will have the most impact on the ultimate fidelity of your system.
 

MylesBAstor

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It will sound even better in three weeks. Trust me.
 

BlueFox

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Yes. Even new AC lines have to burn in.
 

BlueFox

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It is good to see some people took the time to read what I posted. However, some seem to disagree with what, to me, is obvious. Or they just like to argue. :)

I said:

....but I now consider power and cabling to be the foundation of a system.


I mean this in the dictionary definition of

2
: a basis (as a tenet, principle, or axiom) upon which something stands or is supported <the foundations of geometry> <the rumor is without foundation in fact>


Until somebody either develops excellent wireless signal transmission between audio components, or a single unit without cables that exceeds any separate components with cables, along with internal power supplies that run off air, we are going to have to use cabling and AC power for our systems. In the past, for me, this was more of an afterthought, or a necessary evil, not something which dramatically affects the operation of the system. This is the foundation, and the better the foundation then the better the rest of the structure.

Now being a free country you can do what you want, but, in my opinion, I have found that until you have the power and cabling in place you will never be able to hear your gear's true capability. Although I have read this for years from others, until I accidentally discovered it for myself by doing cable and power upgrades on my modest system, it never resonated with me.

A solid foundation allows modest gear to perform at its best, and allows better gear to perform at its potential right from the start. Without a solid foundation, it is impossible for any gear to perform anywhere near its potential.

While the best gear in the world can sound good, without good power and cables, your gear will not reach its potential.

While room treatments might help, without good power and cables, your gear will not reach its potential.

While DIY mods, tweaks, vibration control, etc. can help, without good power and cables, your gear will not reach its potential.

Of course these things can be done first, and will help, but with good power and cables, your present system, if capable, will perform at a level you did not think possible. With good power and cables, any new gear will be able to perform at its potential right from the start. With good power and cables, room treatments, tweaks, etc. become more apparent as they affect the sound.

As individuals, you need to decide what is important to you, and follow that path. However, I am planning on buying and moving in a few years to my father's house on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. I am already planning my listening room, and the first thing is getting multiple 20 amp circuits into it. After that, we will play it by ear. So to speak.

Merry Christmas.
 

MylesBAstor

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I agree they are important elements, but I strongly disagree that they are the foundation of a system. The foundation starts with the room and from there your speakers and gear are the next in importance. You can have great power and cables, but if your room is bad sounding and you don't have good components, it really doesn't matter about your power and cables.

As Jonathan has already pointed out in anothrt thread, these argunents are moot. It ALL counts.
 

treitz3

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I have found that until you have the power and cabling in place you will never be able to hear your gear's true capability. Although I have read this for years from others, until I accidentally discovered it for myself by doing cable and power upgrades on my modest system, it never resonated with me.

It makes so big of a difference to these ears, that I probably would have kept some of the outstanding gear that has come and gone if I had properly addressed the power and cabling aspect years before I did along my audio journey. I feel this could have saved me tens of thousands of dollars along my audio path. They say hind sight is 20/20. In this case, it's crystal clear.

Congrat's on your latest upgrade BlueFox and enjoy the end result.

BTW, for the record, this thread was originally started as a shared observation. Not an argument. ;)

Tom
 

dallasjustice

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This is the old condition precedent argument. Audiophiles like "but for" logic. Power cable dealers love this sales tactic. But for power, you wouldn't have any sound at all, right? I guess we shouldn't stop there. But for air, we wouldn't be able to hear the music. Therefore, air should be the foundation of the system.

Yes, everything matters but some things matter a lot more than others in life. Music playback is the same. Power matters but it's about 10 on the list. I see a shiny new power cable in the OP's future. :)
 

MylesBAstor

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A crappy system will still sound crappy in a good room and a good system will still sound crappy in a bad room. That sets your boundaries and you can work your way in from either end.
 

BlueFox

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I see a shiny new power cable in the OP's future. :)

Not for me. My foundation is solid. I might tweak it with a Typhon for my Triton, but maybe not.

Where my thoughts are at this point is a significant speaker upgrade. I have been drooling for a Magico S5 for a while now. Now that Wilson is coming out with a Sasha W/P 2 for the same price I am frenzied. Whichever I choose I know it will perform its best since it will be on solid foundation. :)

Merry Christmas.
 

mep

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As Jonathan has already pointed out in anothrt thread, these argunents are moot. It ALL counts.

I agree it all counts, I just think some things count more than others.
 

microstrip

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A crappy system will still sound crappy in a good room and a good system will still sound crappy in a bad room. That sets your boundaries and you can work your way in from either end.

Myles,

Unless you define a bad room as "one room that makes a good system sound crappy" I can not agree with the second part of your statement. I have seen rooms that most people would say that they must sound crappy sounding very good. Surely I am referring to average listening rooms, not to empty spaces or rooms or unusual features, such as an all glass room.
 

MylesBAstor

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Myles,

Unless you define a bad room as "one room that makes a good system sound crappy" I can not agree with the second part of your statement. I have seen rooms that most people would say that they must sound crappy sounding very good. Surely I am referring to average listening rooms, not to empty spaces or rooms or unusual features, such as an all glass room.

I think if you read back in my old postings, I've said the exact same thing :) If rooms were as bad as these people would have you believe, you would never hear a good system. There's still way too much unknown than known
Not to mention all these knob twiddling DSP units are doing more harm than good. If I wanted digital, I'd listen to it. I was just tryingto build a conceptual framework where you build from both ends
 

Alrainbow

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It does all matter and if we consider the money and even more important the time into making our systems work better with each tweak.

In my room I have 3 dedicated 30 amp 110 volt circuits all on the same phase and 8 gauge wire three conductors so white and black power and the red is taped green and for ground. All outlets are hospital grade orange ISO ground outlets.
All the amps on one circuits, all the front end digital on one and all the rest on the other. I have two ps audio p10 power regenerators . It is paramount to always use the same phase for all of the same system.

Al. D
 

MylesBAstor

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It does all matter and if we consider the money and even more important the time into making our systems work better with each tweak.

In my room I have 3 dedicated 30 amp 110 volt circuits all on the same phase and 8 gauge wire three conductors so white and black power and the red is taped green and for ground. All outlets are hospital grade orange ISO ground outlets.
All the amps on one circuits, all the front end digital on one and all the rest on the other. I have two ps audio p10 power regenerators . It is paramount to always use the same phase for all of the same system.

Al. D

Yep see post #3 :)

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?458-Another-dedicated-line-question&highlight=weill
 

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