Looking for DAC suggestions

MadFloyd · Dec 8, 2013

I currently own an EMM Labs DAC2X. I'm thinking of making a change. Here's why:

I always seem to be fighting a hardness in the upper treble, especially on vocals (obviously worse on pop/rock than jazz). I've spent considerable amount of effort trying to adjust speaker positioning to ameliorate this to varying degrees of success. Yesterday I borrowed a friend's new DAC - an Auralic Vega. While not as good as my DAC, it did have a warmer presentation and was much more enjoyable on a lot of music. It got me thinking that maybe my DAC is just a tad on the lean side and that a warmer DAC would synergize better in my system.

The only other DAC I have ever heard is the Berkely Alpha Series I. I would be looking for a USB DAC that can handle DSD. It needs to be very resolving but not fatiguing.

One DAC that comes to mind is the Playback Designs but not having heard it I don't know its character. For all I know it would be a move in the wrong direction.

Thoughts?

LL21 · Dec 8, 2013

Hi Ian,

You have a great player there already, so definitively 'beating it' (ie, you get what you want in warmth without any major sacrifices elsewhere, netting to a lateral move) will be tough. The Vivaldi DAC you and I heard at Goodwins comes to mind (just the DAC). CH Precision is supposedly great. I have heard extremely good things about Lampizator's latest DSD DAC and Light Harmonic (which I think JackD201 distributes?)...which actually has 2 separate DAC configurations inside...on the philosophy that DSD requires its own dedicated D/A vs PCM.

JackD201 · Dec 8, 2013

Hi Ian,

Have you tried using the EQ on your J River media player? It's free.

I just thought I'd throw that in there first even if I do have some candidates in mind that are warmer than the DAC2X which I personally find to be one of the top DACs out there.

jap · Dec 8, 2013

MadFloyd,

Aesthetix will be introducing Signature versions of their Romulus and Pandora digital products that can handle DSD.

Is hardness in the upper treble you're getting more apparent on PCM or DSD recordings?

AMP · Dec 8, 2013

I went through a digital product evaluation over the summer and came out of it with a very healthy respect for the Bricasti M1. It was never, ever, ever fatiguing regardless of type of music or recording quality, but had the ability to pull a tremendous amount of detail from recordings. I remember playing some of the Heifetz RCA recordings through it and a far more expensive alternative. While the individual differences between the two were subtle, the M1 painted a much more vivid and "right-sounding" picture.

The M1 does native DSD as well as up to 192/24 on all inputs. Build quality and parts selection is excellent.

Another option could be a DAC from dCS and its worth seeing if the Debussy floats your boat. The Vivaldi is outstanding and can be purchased as a DAC alone. If you like the dCS approach, but want more than the Debussy and don't want to spend Vivaldi money then talk to your dealer about used (certified pre-owned) units that dCS has in stock. You might find a Scarlatti at a good price.

Finally, the Luxman DA-06 is excellent and the price is very reasonable. I haven't yet had a chance to put one through all of its paces but should be able to report more this time next week as Philip is stopping by for a visit with a van full-o-Luxman.

Based on my experiences to date my first choice would likely be the Bricasti M1 unless there's a willingness or desire to spend a lot more.

(disclaimer... I carry Bricasti, dCS, and Luxman)

JackD201 · Dec 8, 2013

Just out of curiosity, how many hours have you got on your Alexias Ian? There's nothing in your chain front to back and back to front that would suggest any hardness to me. This coming from a guy that loves a bit of a dip at 2k or a bit of a downward slope.

Bruce B · Dec 8, 2013

Mad... here are my suggestions. First, stay away from the M1. You'll go crazy with the filter settings and still not find audio nirvana.
Go with either the PBD MPS-5... this will give you a DAC that will do every PCM and DSD sample rate and also give you the flexibility to spin SACD/CD discs if anyone comes over.
The other 2 options are the Light Harmonic.. I've heard this several times and it does good things. The last option is the Lampi.. I've only heard the DSD, but if that is any indication of what the PCM will do, it's a killer deal.

MadFloyd · Dec 8, 2013

Appreciate the replies!

My dealer carries the Bricasti and I heard it when he held an open house with the Alexias & D'Agostino amps. He has since told me that it is not as musical out of the box - that you have to play with the filters but its very rewarding once you dial it in. I guess that would be the easiest to try, but between his comments and Bruce's I'm a little hesitant.

Bruce, is the PBD fuller in body than the DAC2X?

I have heard mention of the Lampi (Lampinator?) before but don't know too much about it; I'll research it, thanks.

Jack: My Alexias have well over a thousand hours if not more and I would feel pretty comfortable in saying that they're broken in. If I were to point to the speaker in any way I would look to setup - which is so far done by yours truly (with help from my wife) since I haven't been provided setup yet (I'm not bitter, honest). That said, I think I have them sounding pretty darn good.

I'm also going to see what happens when I swap out the preamp and amps (which I am doing this week). I do have a pretty big space to fill and feel like I'm light on midbass as a result.. My room is 14' wide at one end (and that's due to half wall otherwise it extends 28' more as it's open to a large kitchen) and 17' wide at the other end (which also has an exit to another room) with 9' ceilings. It also has a fireplace which might be sucking out some bass.

In any event, I'm enjoying my system a lot - especially on jazz and classical. It wasn't until I heard this other DAC with a huge warm foundation that I found myself marveling at how these speakers could rock. I keep getting all kinds of crazy thoughts - e.g. a 2nd DAC for rock, XLF's, etc.

jap · Dec 8, 2013

MadFloyd said:
Jack: My Alexias have well over a thousand hours if not more and I would feel pretty comfortable in saying that they're broken in. If I were to point to the speaker in any way I would look to setup - which is so far done by yours truly (with help from my wife) since I haven't been provided setup yet (I'm not bitter, honest). That said, I think I have them sounding pretty darn good.

I wouldn't change anything until you get the WASP done by a trained dealer.

I'm sure you're aware of the following:

Limited Warranty
Subject to the conditions set forth herein, Wilson Audio warrants its electronics to
be free of manufacturing defects in material and workmanship for the Warranty Period.
The Warranty Period is a period of 90 days from the date of purchase by the original
purchaser, or if both of the following two requirements are met, the Warranty Period is
a period of five (5) years from the date of purchase by the original purchaser:

Requirement No. 1. No later than 30 days after product delivery to the
customer, the customer must have returned the Warranty Registration
Form to Wilson Audio;

Requirement No. 2. The product must have been professionally installed by
the Wilson Audio dealer that sold the product to the customer.

FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH EITHER REQUIREMENT NO. 1 OR REQUIREMENT NO. 2
WILL RESULT IN THE WARRANTY PERIOD BEING LIMITED TO A PERIOD OF 90 DAYS
ONLY.

wisnon · Dec 8, 2013

MadFloyd said:
Appreciate the replies!

My dealer carries the Bricasti and I heard it when he held an open house with the Alexias & D'Agostino amps. He has since told me that it is not as musical out of the box - that you have to play with the filters but its very rewarding once you dial it in. I guess that would be the easiest to try, but between his comments and Bruce's I'm a little hesitant.

Bruce, is the PBD fuller in body than the DAC2X?

I have heard mention of the Lampi (Lampinator?) before but don't know too much about it; I'll research it, thanks.

Jack: My Alexias have well over a thousand hours if not more and I would feel pretty comfortable in saying that they're broken in. If I were to point to the speaker in any way I would look to setup - which is so far done by yours truly (with help from my wife) since I haven't been provided setup yet (I'm not bitter, honest). That said, I think I have them sounding pretty darn good.

I'm also going to see what happens when I swap out the preamp and amps (which I am doing this week). I do have a pretty big space to fill and feel like I'm light on midbass as a result.. My room is 14' wide at one end (and that's due to half wall otherwise it extends 28' more as it's open to a large kitchen) and 17' wide at the other end (which also has an exit to another room) with 9' ceilings. It also has a fireplace which might be sucking out some bass.

In any event, I'm enjoying my system a lot - especially on jazz and classical. It wasn't until I heard this other DAC with a huge warm foundation that I found myself marveling at how these speakers could rock. I keep getting all kinds of crazy thoughts - e.g. a 2nd DAC for rock, XLF's, etc.

I have a DSD-only and a L4 PCM Lampi.

I will PM you some feedback.

microstrip · Dec 8, 2013

MadFloyd,

I would also look in power cable section. I have been using the Alexia's with many types of amplifiers and sources, as I am still making experiences, and the only way I found to make them sound really harsh was using a complete set of Furutech entry level DIY power cables - a complete disaster. The Alexia's treble is just the opposite - I have been using equipment that I consider on the bright side, but hardness was never a problem. Sometimes what we feel as treble hardness is a problem of some zones in the midrange or even mid-bass.

Recently I acquired an excellent PS Audio P10, expecting that this power conditioner would allow me to use normal quality (decent price

) mains cables. Unfortunately, although the P10 improved slightly the warmth in my system, it did not remove for the need of high quality power cables - I am now ordering new Shunyata's.

MadFloyd · Dec 8, 2013

jap said:
I wouldn't change anything until you get the WASP done by a trained dealer.

I'm sure you're aware of the following:

Limited Warranty
Subject to the conditions set forth herein, Wilson Audio warrants its electronics to
be free of manufacturing defects in material and workmanship for the Warranty Period.
The Warranty Period is a period of 90 days from the date of purchase by the original
purchaser, or if both of the following two requirements are met, the Warranty Period is
a period of five (5) years from the date of purchase by the original purchaser:

Requirement No. 1. No later than 30 days after product delivery to the
customer, the customer must have returned the Warranty Registration
Form to Wilson Audio;

Requirement No. 2. The product must have been professionally installed by
the Wilson Audio dealer that sold the product to the customer.

FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH EITHER REQUIREMENT NO. 1 OR REQUIREMENT NO. 2
WILL RESULT IN THE WARRANTY PERIOD BEING LIMITED TO A PERIOD OF 90 DAYS
ONLY.

No, I wasn't aware of that. Well wouldn't that be clever: sell a pair of speakers, not deliver setup then tell the customer his warranty is null and void.

rrr · Dec 8, 2013

I have a DAC2X and do not detect the issues you mention.

MadFloyd · Dec 8, 2013

microstrip said:
MadFloyd,

I would also look in power cable section. I have been using the Alexia's with many types of amplifiers and sources, as I am still making experiences, and the only way I found to make them sound really harsh was using a complete set of Furutech entry level DIY power cables - a complete disaster. The Alexia's treble is just the opposite - I have been using equipment that I consider on the bright side, but hardness was never a problem. Sometimes what we feel as treble hardness is a problem of some zones in the midrange or even mid-bass.

Recently I acquired an excellent PS Audio P10, expecting that this power conditioner would allow me to use normal quality (decent price ) mains cables. Unfortunately, although the P10 improved slightly the warmth in my system, it did not remove for the need of high quality power cables - I am now ordering new Shunyata's.

Interesting thought. I have Equi=tech transformers providing balanced power into Oyaide outlets and MIT Z-III power cords. For all I know it's a hard sound. I bought some Furutech outlets to try but never got around to installing them.

MadFloyd · Dec 8, 2013

rrr said:
I have a DAC2X and do not detect the issues you mention.

Thanks. To be clear I am not saying there is anything wrong with the DAC or any of my gear for that matter, I am probably looking for a different tonal balance.

dallasjustice · Dec 8, 2013

MadFloyd said:
Thanks. To be clear I am not saying there is anything wrong with the DAC or any of my gear for that matter, I am probably looking for a different tonal balance.

Maybe you are experiencing post-analog sound wave filtration dis sonority.

That one was for you Bruce.

Bruce B · Dec 8, 2013

dallasjustice said:
That one was for you Bruce.

Good one!

edorr · Dec 8, 2013

MadFloyd said:
I currently own an EMM Labs DAC2X. I'm thinking of making a change. Here's why:

I always seem to be fighting a hardness in the upper treble, especially on vocals (obviously worse on pop/rock than jazz). I've spent considerable amount of effort trying to adjust speaker positioning to ameliorate this to varying degrees of success. Yesterday I borrowed a friend's new DAC - an Auralic Vega. While not as good as my DAC, it did have a warmer presentation and was much more enjoyable on a lot of music. It got me thinking that maybe my DAC is just a tad on the lean side and that a warmer DAC would synergize better in my system.

The only other DAC I have ever heard is the Berkely Alpha Series I. I would be looking for a USB DAC that can handle DSD. It needs to be very resolving but not fatiguing.

One DAC that comes to mind is the Playback Designs but not having heard it I don't know its character. For all I know it would be a move in the wrong direction.

Thoughts?

I switched from DAC2X to MSB Signature and never looked back. Indeed the DAC2X has a slightly "lean" sound compared tot the MSB.

dallasjustice · Dec 8, 2013

Seriously, if you are sure the thing needed is a new DAC, I would shop for something with a different design. Edorr's rec is good. There are other awesome ladder DACs to choose from too. There's no question they sound different from your DAC. Whether the ladder DACs are better or not is preference.

Orb · Dec 8, 2013

I am starting to wonder that if you after the best in both worlds and have a large selection of PCM and DSD, whether 2 dedicated DACs are needed if wanting the best from both formats.
The reason is it seems their architecture-implementation or focus is primarily for one or the other.
To my mind the Meitner upsampling PCM to 5.6MHz is more ideal for DSD, MSB with its architecture is well suited to PCM.
For 1-bit DSD again you have Playback, for PCM some others such as Meridian (not just them) with very well designed architecture/digital filters and even if some are Sigma Delta DACs without relying completely on the OEM solution.

Some that may bridge both well; dCS latest models (but technically not a 1-bit DSD design) amongst other manufacturers.

BTW you happy with the EMM Labs on DSD?
Maybe keep that for DSD and another one for PCM, although pain in back side having 2 DACs

So may need compromise on one format.

Cheers
Orb

Looking for DAC suggestions

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