Sublime Sound

Audiophile Bill · Nov 28, 2019

PeterA said:
Hello Bill. That is a good question for David. He suggested to me that my DIY thick birch plywood shelves were dampening my components and suggested that I install some hardwood coasters between the stock rubber footers and the plywood shelves. I had some old oak flooring around, so I simply cut some up and installed it. I suppose some other hardwoods would also work. Eventually, the plan is to install 1" thick steel plates under each component, but that will take time.

I see.

Each hardwood sounds very different to each other from my tests in the last few weeks. Not just a little different either. Not really surprising given the vast literature on the tonal qualitative profiles of woods for classical guitar etc. What is rationale for the plan to use 1” thick steel plates under each component?

Best.

PeterA · Nov 28, 2019

Tango said:
Dear Peter,

Now I am certain that you are a very open minded person who could put his ego aside and willing to learn. I will say it is more of the learning and accepting of your new definition of "natural sound" than anything else. This realization has to happen to you yourself then you will understand why I stepped into David's approach to reproduced sound. Make no mistake this is not the so called David's Patented Natural Sound. If you hear it, can relate to it more, sound closer to what you naturally hear when you turn off your stereo, then it is the natural sound available to anyone who may appreciate it. I saw so many comments, discussions, debates went on and on just because many people never heard this type of sound and they also put their values differently. We cannot tell people to hear things. They have to hear it themself and the realization has to happen by themself. You are getting into this sound and stepping into a new path. Doubt and suspicions will be along the way. I only know this so well because I am one of the heavy weight who had all kind of super tweaks in my system. One thing I understand your mentality and adyc's mentality for sure is this approach is not making you pay more and you both are confident that you can get your original sound back whenever you want. You sure did not see I wrote any wow, any detail feedbacks of my de-tweak except for the deletion of subs that people put it on spotlight. I did not say it because I realize I am just a newbie not veteran with high credentials like many including you in this forum. What I would have said would be just a hyperbol as you mentioned. Now you are writing giving friends your feedbacks. What you wrote resembles the characters of sound I heard when I started simplifying my system. I have a feeling you and I now can relate to what we hear more and more. And in the future you will like old records more and more too.

Kind regards,
Tang

Thank you Tang. This is a wonderful post.

Yes, I agree that one needs to hear this for himself to truly appreciate the difference. Taking it only on faith is not enough. And such changes are often not easily accepted or recognized for what they are. Being open minded and setting aside one's ego are often necessary for real learning, but this too is not always easy. This whole episode has been humbling for me.

One real side benefit is the decluttering of my gear and room in what is our formal living room. If I had a dedicated listening room in the basement, there would certainly not be the same imperative to simplicity and order. But in the end, and as I have said often, my wife is a saint and puts up with this stuff. Something to be grateful for on this Thanksgiving Day.

I have been listening to older records lately, mostly because they are roughly the same thickness (no changing VTA), and I like the music for fine tuning the sound. I am really trying to leave VTA alone. We will see what happens when I try to play some jazz reissues. Now that, for me, will be a very old habit to break.

PeterA · Nov 28, 2019

Audiophile Bill said:
I see.

Each hardwood sounds very different to each other from my tests in the last few weeks. Not just a little different either. Not really surprising given the vast literature on the tonal qualitative profiles of woods for classical guitar etc. What is rationale for the plan to use 1” thick steel plates under each component?

Best.

The steel plates will simply be another experiment. I am curious to learn how the sound might change. I think it is interesting that some racks are steel and some are wood. One approach might be described as a way to "tune" the sound, and another may be described as a way to simply support the gear but not change or add a signature to the sound. That is only a guess but I would like to explore that more later.

Audiophile Bill · Nov 28, 2019

PeterA said:
The steel plates will simply be another experiment. I am curious to learn how the sound might change. I think it is interesting that some racks are steel and some are wood. One approach might be described as a way to "tune" the sound, and another may be described as a way to simply support the gear but not change or add a signature to the sound. That is only a guess but I would like to explore that more later.

Certainly something like a Shun Mook is there to impart a sympathetic resonance.

The concept or merely supporting and not doing anything doesn’t exist imo. Whatever substrate one and the specific geometry / form of the substrate used anywhere in the system has a sound ime. Whether that be the choice of metal used on the chassis or the included footer or the type of magnet or cone material or conductor material - the variables go on ad infinitum. One also doesn’t know the substrate and shape of that substrate that the amplifier / component was actually voiced on so it is rather impossible.
By doing nothing in this regard, do you mean that one wouldn’t wish for the supportive equipment to protect one’s equipment from vibration either floor borne, air borne, or internally generated?

PeterA · Nov 28, 2019

Ron Resnick said:
Peter, are you able to isolate, and describe for us, the sound of your system with the Tube Traps and without the Tube Traps?

As you know from our side bar discussions I like Tube Traps in front corners, and, although this is purely theoretical (Kedar and Keith please look away), I like the idea of the traps absorbing reflections so they don’t bounce around those cavities on each side of the fireplace.

Theory aside, what do you think is the actual sonic effect of the Tube Traps in your system?

Hi Ron, I will investigate this more closely in time. I agree that one may want to address certain room nodes excited by dimensions. I found that when I installed them years ago that they seemed to clean up the sound and I thought the sound smoothed out a bit. I remember thinking the sound was more focused and intelligible. Now, I am not sure. The sound seems more lively and there is more musical energy in the room. Perhaps in the next week or so I will look into this more closely.

Incidentally, Goodwin's High End removed their large stacks of tube traps form the front corners completely, and all but one short section in the rear corners of their main showcase listening room. I have heard one demo there since, but with an unfamiliar system, so I can't really describe the differences except to say that the room sounds more lively. It was very damped before.

PeterA · Nov 28, 2019

Audiophile Bill said:
Certainly something like a Shun Mook is there to impart a sympathetic resonance.

The concept or merely supporting and not doing anything doesn’t exist imo. Whatever substrate one and the specific geometry / form of the substrate used anywhere in the system has a sound ime. Whether that be the choice of metal used on the chassis or the included footer or the type of magnet or cone material or conductor material - the variables go on ad infinitum. One also doesn’t know the substrate and shape of that substrate that the amplifier / component was actually voiced on so it is rather impossible.
By doing nothing in this regard, do you mean that one wouldn’t wish for the supportive equipment to protect one’s equipment from vibration either floor borne, air borne, or internally generated?

Bill, I can't answer those questions. I'd like to think that "not doing anything" really means "doing as little harm as possible" to the signal and what one hears. I don't really know, which is why it is on my list of things to try. There seem to be many approaches to equipment support. I have gone the air isolation route, now the pretty wood shelf route, and I want to try something else. I suggest there are others on this forum who are much more qualified to answer your questions.

Audiophile Bill · Nov 28, 2019

PeterA said:
Bill, I can't answer those questions. I'd like to think that "not doing anything" really means "doing as little harm as possible" to the signal and what one hears. I don't really know, which is why it is on my list of things to try. There seem to be many approaches to equipment support. I have gone the air isolation route, now the pretty wood shelf route, and I want to try something else. I suggest there are others on this forum who are much more qualified to answer your questions.

No probs

Have a nice Thanksgiving, Peter.

Just been experimenting at home with this:

microstrip · Nov 28, 2019

PeterA said:
The steel plates will simply be another experiment. I am curious to learn how the sound might change. I think it is interesting that some racks are steel and some are wood. One approach might be described as a way to "tune" the sound, and another may be described as a way to simply support the gear but not change or add a signature to the sound. That is only a guess but I would like to explore that more later.

Everything has sound signature and will change the sound. Considering that one approach tunes and the other supports is just a form of introducing bias - IMHO open minds show avoid any kind of bias ...

spiritofmusic · Nov 28, 2019

Peter, further to confirmation I haven't understood you again, your combination of wooden blocks under gear, or steel on wood, are all tweaks. Definitely less pricey than Vibraplane or Stacore or Centre Stage, but tweaks nevertheless. Pop your Pass amps on the floor, and yr SME on the most domestically acceptable piece of furniture like an antique sideboard, and if you still feel tweaks are counterproductive, let us know. I'm afraid steel on dedicated stand is a tweak however you cut it. Amps on the floor and tt on a standard piece of domestic furniture, now we're really talking proper de-tweaking.

PeterA · Nov 28, 2019

microstrip said:
Everything has sound signature and will change the sound. Considering that one approach tunes and the other supports is just a form of introducing bias - IMHO open minds show avoid any kind of bias ...

Fransisco, it may well be possible that everything imparts an audible signature, just some materials more than others. I do read reports of designers tuning things with different woods: plinths, tonearm wands, cartridges, shelving, footers, speaker cabinets. Designers using metal don't seem to discuss things in the same terms, but I may be wrong. Perhaps there are people talking about copper, brass, aluminum, and steel with their different sonic signatures. People do discuss different metal cartridge mounting screw materials and how they change the sound. And I made both a brass and stainless steel top plate for my armpod.

BWe are specifically talking about equipment supports here, and I have much to learn about this subject. My expectation is that one shelf type tunes as it supports while another may tune less as it supports. I hope to learn if this is the case.

microstrip · Nov 28, 2019

spiritofmusic said:
(...) Amps on the floor and tt on a standard piece of domestic furniture, now we're really talking proper de-tweaking.

No, IMHO in order to de-tweak you must reproduce exactly the supports used by the designer. And surely his house structure and materials!

PeterA · Nov 28, 2019

spiritofmusic said:
Peter, further to confirmation I haven't understood you again, your combination of wooden blocks under gear, or steel on wood, are all tweaks. Definitely less pricey than Vibraplane or Stacore or Centre Stage, but tweaks nevertheless. Pop your Pass amps on the floor, and yr SME on the most domestically acceptable piece of furniture like an antique sideboard, and if you still feel tweaks are counterproductive, let us know. I'm afraid steel on dedicated stand is a tweak however you cut it. Amps on the floor and tt on a standard piece of domestic furniture, now we're really talking proper de-tweaking.

Marc, I understand your absolutist observations. I admit that oak coasters and steel plates are tweaks. They are add ons and may change the sound I hear. Did I say my system was completely tweak free? I missed that. I thought I was describing how I am simplifying my system and getting back to basics.

Gear does need to be supported somehow, just like it needs to be fed power. I will not be putting a solid steel rack in my living room. I can see how a wood rack or a steel rack would be considered a tweak compared to the floor or an old antique sideboard. I won't lose sleep over that one, nor how the carpet on the floor or my 220 year old plaster and lath walls tweak the sound in the room.

spiritofmusic · Nov 28, 2019

Noone should lose any sleep over a hobby.

microstrip · Nov 28, 2019

PeterA said:
Fransisco, it may well be possible that everything imparts an audible signature, just some materials more than others. I do read reports of designers tuning things with different woods: plinths, tonearm wands, cartridges, shelving, footers, speaker cabinets. Designers using metal don't seem to discuss things in the same terms, but I may be wrong. Perhaps there are people talking about copper, brass, aluminum, and steel with their different sonic signatures. People do discuss different metal cartridge mounting screw materials and how they change the sound. And I made both a brass and stainless steel top plate for my armpod.

BWe are specifically talking about equipment supports here, and I have much to learn about this subject. My expectation is that one shelf type tunes as it supports while another may tune less as it supports. I hope to learn if this is the case.

Well, the influence of metals has been discussed since long - I immediately remember Goldmund reports that associated steel, brass and aluminum. For example, Magico are currently known for their work in this area. If you use single materials you should play with the dimensions or shapes to tune it, another approach.

ddk · Nov 28, 2019

Audiophile Bill said:
Hi Peter,

Why oak specifically for these footers? I am curious as I have been testing different woods but wanted to know why this in your circumstance?

Any dense hardwood would do, you’re not trying to tune the sound with coasters in this instance just have a layer between the mdf and equipment to disrupt the effects of the shelf.

david

ddk · Nov 28, 2019

spiritofmusic said:
Peter, further to confirmation I haven't understood you again, your combination of wooden blocks under gear, or steel on wood, are all tweaks. Definitely less pricey than Vibraplane or Stacore or Centre Stage, but tweaks nevertheless. Pop your Pass amps on the floor, and yr SME on the most domestically acceptable piece of furniture like an antique sideboard, and if you still feel tweaks are counterproductive, let us know. I'm afraid steel on dedicated stand is a tweak however you cut it. Amps on the floor and tt on a standard piece of domestic furniture, now we're really talking proper de-tweaking.

Steel plate isn’t a tweak Marc, it’s mass loading his stand for better support, isolation and stability. The oak coasters are just barrier between the mdf and the equipment not used for tuning or adding wood flavor.

david

ddk · Nov 28, 2019

Audiophile Bill said:
I see.

Each hardwood sounds very different to each other from my tests in the last few weeks. Not just a little different either. Not really surprising given the vast literature on the tonal qualitative profiles of woods for classical guitar etc. What is rationale for the plan to use 1” thick steel plates under each component?

Best.

For mass Bill and steel doesn’t dampen. If there’s any interaction issues between the steel plate and the components it’s easy to disrupt that as needed without any loss of information.

Edit- To clarify, this is the simplest and most basic approach that anyone can use and not the ultimate solution but much better results than the existing furniture and minimal cost.

david

Audiophile Bill · Nov 28, 2019

microstrip said:
No, IMHO in order to de-tweak you must reproduce exactly the supports used by the designer. And surely his house structure and materials!

Correct. Exactly the point I was making above.

Audiophile Bill · Nov 28, 2019

ddk said:
Any dense hardwood would do, you’re not trying to tune the sound with coasters in this just have a layer between the mdf and equipment to disrupt the effects of the shelf.

david

Okay understand

PeterA · Nov 28, 2019

microstrip said:
No, IMHO in order to de-tweak you must reproduce exactly the supports used by the designer. And surely his house structure and materials!

Yes and you must use the turntable and tonearm that cartridge designers use if you buy their cartridge. This approach is not practical, so we do the best we can.

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