Receiver vs. Pre/Pro

I often wondered about the same thing Lee. I've been using pre-pros because somehow I was never satisfied with the onboard amps. Getting a receiver and then just using it's pre/pro portion and just ignoring the rest seems a waste.

It has been a while and my recent experience is pretty light, so take my comments with a block of salt...

Most companies put their highest-end components into the separates so you might get a bit better performance. Some companies put the same electronics in their pre/pro as in their top receiver, some don't. My limited more recent observations indicate pre/pros by and large offer another input or three compared to the AVR; probably just because there's a little more room without speaker connections. Separating the power amps from the low-level electronics used to be touted as a Big Thing, but I am not sure how much it really helped from a listener's perspective. Now, the noisiest part is the DSP in the digital section, so I am not sure if the benefit is the same as in years gone by or not.

For me, the biggest difference is/was being able to get a lot more clean power than a receiver could provide, and spreading the thermal load around a bit. I also appreciate being able to pick and choose the power amps to suit the application rather than being locked into whatever the AVR provides, and of course these days with various A/V standards evolving and such it means I can upgrade the pre/pro without changing my amps.

FWIWFM - Don

DonH50 said:

.................and of course these days with various A/V standards evolving and such it means I can upgrade the pre/pro without changing my amps.

FWIWFM - Don

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I like that part

Receivers have one very, very big edge. They sure save a lot of space!

Very true! I was surprised at how hot some of them run, meaning more cooling space needed around them, but I had separates for ages so the heat wasn't as concentrated. Still, my previous system was (almost) all tubes so it wasn't all that cool even distributed. As it is, I ended up yanking the VCR out of my current system because my amps ran a bit warm in the console. I could put it back with a little modification to move a shelf up a bit, but haven't had the time and inclination yet. Last I time watched a VCR compared to a BD I was convinced I needed to replace my old tapes with DVDs at least, so I am on a path to gradually do that.

Back OT, one of the other issues for me is that only the very top AVRs seem to have the better room compensation systems (Audyssey, MCACC, etc.) while most pre/pros have at least a decent scheme. I think that is one of the biggest advances in audio since the room is the sound, or at least a large part of it. Again, limited research, but several of the companies I looked at offered the top or near-top Audyssey etc. only in the very top AVRs ($5k and up) while there are pre/pros that fall into the midrange'ish price ($1500 - $2500) that have MultiEQ if not MultiEQ XT. While I have lost my golden ears and ability to pay for the class of equipment I used to own, the big advantage is that for me $2500 buys a lot in a power amp that sounds OK to my ears...

More pre/pros seem to be upgradable, too, again with only the top few in the AVR line having that capability. I expect that to change, but manufacturers are also reluctant to provide the files to the users, probably because they'll end up paying if the user messes up an upgrade (either directly by fixing it gratis and/or indirectly by all the bad press, a problem exacerbated by the Internet).

DonH50 said:

Back OT, one of the other issues for me is that only the very top AVRs seem to have the better room compensation systems (Audyssey, MCACC, etc.) while most pre/pros have at least a decent scheme.

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Not so. Use of Audyssey in Denon/Marantz/Integra/Onkyo AVRs begins at price points considerably lower than for their pre/pros.

Again, limited research, but several of the companies I looked at offered the top or near-top Audyssey etc. only in the very top AVRs ($5k and up) while there are pre/pros that fall into the midrange'ish price ($1500 - $2500) that have MultiEQ if not MultiEQ XT.

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Correction: MultEQ XT is the highest level of Audyssey offered built into AVRs and most pre/pros. Some offer compatibility with AudysseyPro which is a separate product. However, even this begins in the $1500 range for both AVRs and pre/pros.

More pre/pros seem to be upgradable, too, again with only the top few in the AVR line having that capability. I expect that to change, but manufacturers are also reluctant to provide the files to the users, probably because they'll end up paying if the user messes up an upgrade (either directly by fixing it gratis and/or indirectly by all the bad press, a problem exacerbated by the Internet).

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That varies more from manufacturer to manufacturer than it does with price.

Hi Kal,

Thanks for chiming in as I am over my head on current stuff. Too little shopping, eh?

When I was looking, it appeared to me that the upper tier of Audyssey was only found in the upper tier of AVRs and their pre/pros, although it did start lower in the lines with the "lower" Audyssey. I am still grappling with what that means to the average user. But, there's a typo you caught so I'll leave: I meant to say "$2.5k and up" -- 'ish.

What I did not say explicitly is that imo most manufacturers place their pre/pro units at the upper end of the line, assuming the buyers of that class ("separates") are the upper-end buyers. I think they are missing the boat by not offering a full line of pre/pro along side the AVR line, but they undoubtedly know the market better than I and there probably aren't enough sales in the lower range.

I have not done nearly enough research and you are by far the expert in terms of knowledge of a wide range of systems. I checked integra, which offers Pro compatibility only in their top pre/pro (the 80.x has it, not the 40.x) and Onkyo (I think?), which again offered Pro compatibility only in the top one or two units. I give.

With your last line, agree completely I do...

DonH50 said:

Thanks for chiming in as I am over my head on current stuff. Too little shopping, eh?

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Yes. Ask not what the economy can do for you....................................

What I did not say explicitly is that imo most manufacturers place their pre/pro units at the upper end of the line, assuming the buyers of that class ("separates") are the upper-end buyers. I think they are missing the boat by not offering a full line of pre/pro along side the AVR line, but they undoubtedly know the market better than I and there probably aren't enough sales in the lower range.

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Yup. The market for pre/pros is tiny compared to that for AVRs, so even the small incremental cost of developing a new SKU in a range is spread over a large base for AVRs but a small one for pre/pros.

I have not done nearly enough research and you are by far the expert in terms of knowledge of a wide range of systems. I checked integra, which offers Pro compatibility only in their top pre/pro (the 80.x has it, not the 40.x) and Onkyo (I think?), which again offered Pro compatibility only in the top one or two units. I give.

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None of the new Onkyo's will offer Pro compatibility. A factory rep at CES last January told me that it will be one of the differentiations between Integra and Onkyo. The Marantz AV-7005 may be the least expensive pre/pro with Pro compatibility.

Quick reply to the last point -- I acknowledge having a stoopid moment; it was Marantz, after you told me I should look into that model in the pre/pro thread that I started! Senility can be painful, but by tomorrow I will have forgotten all this.

Thanks Kal - Don

Aside from Anthem's entry into the fray, I do not see any real changes in the lay of the land. AVRs continue to evolve, competitively, by including more and more features. Some of these features are of value for performance (better room correction, setup/presets for individual inputs, etc.) but most are convenience issues (movie streaming, music/web streaming, iPod/Sirius/XM/HD radio, etc.).

BTW, the most advanced version of Audyssey is now MultEQ XT32.

Kal

I recently got a service manual that covers the Onkyo PR-SC5507 pre/pro. What was interesting is that the board containing the DAC and volume control section (also including a switch matrix and HDMI interface to the DACs) was shared between this pre/pro and also the TX-NR1007/3007/5007, NA1007/5007, DTR-70.1/80.1, and HDC-80.1. I'm not sure what all of these models are, but at least some of them are receivers. So at least for this model (now obsolete), it shows they're not reserving their best stuff for the pre/pro. This schematic shows the BB/TI PCM1796 DAC chips and the Cirrus CS3318 8-channel volume control chip being used. Op-amps were 5532. These pre/pros seem like a killer value compared to typical high-end audio equipment.

Kal Rubinson said:

None of the new Onkyo's will offer Pro compatibility. A factory rep at CES last January told me that it will be one of the differentiations between Integra and Onkyo. The Marantz AV-7005 may be the least expensive pre/pro with Pro compatibility.

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Hasn't there been a change of policy on the part of Onkyo on this? I heard the PR-SC5508 supports Audyssey Pro.

andy_c said:

Hasn't there been a change of policy on the part of Onkyo on this? I heard the PR-SC5508 supports Audyssey Pro.

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Apparently. What I said is what I was told last year at CES but, more recently, the press rep and Audyssey told me that the 5508 will have AudysseyPro. Consequently, we agreed that I would be getting one for review since AudysseyPro was one of my requirements. However, I am still waiting.

Kal

=> Few rave reviews of A/V receivers and Pre/Pros! (From $1,200 to $5,000 MSRP)

Here are some reviews of AV receivers and Surround Processors that were positively rated and might be of interest to some members and readers here (simply click on the model you'd like to read 'bout):

1. Integra DHC-40.2 Pre/Pro

2. Arcam FMJ AVR600 A/V Receiver

3. Onkyo TX-NR5008 A/V Receiver

4. Yamaha Aventage RX-A2000 A/V Receiver

5. Marantz SR7005 A/V Receiver

6. Anthem MRX 700 A/V Receiver

7. Marantz AV7005 Pre/Pro

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