Intrigued by JBL M2 speaker system .... Opinions please ...

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 12, 2013

microstrip said:
The same amplifier for both sections, just to be sure I would not be doing wrong!

I have owned a pair of the great Dynaudio Consequences. They had 12'' diameter woofers crossed at 800 Hz - I could never find a good combination of different amplifiers to bi-amp them.

I believe I'd just go with the Crowns and call it a day.

Tim

cjfrbw · Nov 12, 2013

Look nice. If I were going with the horn loaded pardigm, though, I think I would want better than 96 db efficiency overall. If it is 92 db efficient with an active crossover, that is not very high, about the same as a 89 db efficiency with a passive crossover.

rockitman · Nov 12, 2013

Phelonious Ponk said:
I believe I'd just go with the Crowns and call it a day.

Tim

They certainly would be loud enough...

mep · Nov 12, 2013

Phelonious Ponk said:
I believe I'd just go with the Crowns and call it a day.

Tim

If you have enough cash to buy these speakers, I believe I would go with whatever amps sounded the best.

amirm · Nov 12, 2013

Phelonious Ponk said:
$20k street for that kind of performance? These are a steal by high end standards. Of course the physical construction is modest: satin lacquer on MDF. No high gloss automotive paint or exotic veneers. No ice block melting in a hot wind tunnel look. Pretty modest size, relatively speaking. Looks like they put all the money in the sound. I'd love to hear these.

Tim

You are right on all accounts but size. They are rather imposing. Perhaps no more than Wilsons and such but it looks bigger than the pictures imply.

amirm · Nov 12, 2013

edorr said:
I remember over 20 years ago being completely blown away by a pair of JBL 4333B monitors playing at a show (using master take as source). This was the first time I was exposed to how good reproduced sound could be.

This is really a new chapter for them. In the past, very high priority was put on dynamic range and reliability due to pro applications. This is the first JBL Pro speakers I have heard that sound like the typical "home" system. The Everest for example, is an amazing speaker but has a different sound (wonderful with older content). These sound "modern" for the lack of a better subjective word

.

amirm · Nov 12, 2013

joeinid said:
Amir

Any thoughts about trying McIntosh MC452 or MC601's on top and Bryston 28bsst2's on the bottom?

The byrston's would be beefy enough for the bottom. And the Macs serve up the top well. Per my other email, you will need permission from Harman to delete the amps that come with it.

amirm · Nov 12, 2013

microstrip said:
BTW, can you tell us what means the BSS OMNIDRIVE HD Digital Signature processing?

It is the marketing name for the combination of digital active crossover and related processing. BSS is the company that Harman bought a few years back which is now renamed to SDEC (with new software) and subsystems that exist in some Crown amps.

amirm · Nov 12, 2013

audioarcher said:
Should be interesting. The PNWAS meeting at Madrona is this Thursday. I will be there and look forward to checking out the JBL M2's. I've only heard a couple of DSP based speaker designs. I was less than impressed with the sound of those. Hopefully the M2's will be different.

I am with you on that. Both with respect to being there and your comment on DSP speakers

. These are different though. The DSP is not used to cover up the flaws of the speaker. The speaker is exceptionally well designed and doesn't need the DSP for that. The DSP is performing crossover and other useful functions such as a limiter. The latter for example allows the speaker to be driven hard up but then stopped from being overdriven. This is not something is implementation in a passive crossover.

The nice thing about the DSP is that its software can easily be updated to give you the profile of sound you like. And longer term, room EQ can be included in it.

microstrip · Nov 12, 2013

cjfrbw said:
Look nice. If I were going with the horn loaded pardigm, though, I think I would want better than 96 db efficiency overall. If it is 92 db efficient with an active crossover, that is not very high, about the same as a 89 db efficiency with a passive crossover.

Thinking a little more, this comment raises a question - how do we specify efficiency in an active speaker having two amplifiers? What does it mean?

Amir, can you help?

rbbert · Nov 12, 2013

Phelonious Ponk said:
I believe I'd just go with the Crowns and call it a day.

Tim

But aren't the current Crown amps pretty similar to the old DC 300? That was a pretty mediocre sounding amp even back in the '70's; the sound of my system took a huge leap up when I traded mine in for a Phase Linear 400.

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 12, 2013

mep said:
If you have enough cash to buy these speakers, I believe I would go with whatever amps sounded the best.

The amps come with the speakers, and I think I can probably trust the joint Revel/JBL teams to match the amps well. Your faith may vary. Personally, I'd rather they had just built the amps in. Less to futz with. Shorter cable runs. Less is more and all that.

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 12, 2013

rbbert said:
But aren't the current Crown amps pretty similar to the old DC 300? That was a pretty mediocre sounding amp even back in the '70's; the sound of my system took a huge leap up when I traded mine in for a Phase Linear 400.

I don't know exactly what kind of progress Crown has made since the 70s, and I know there are people here who believe audio can measure beautifully and sound terrible, and vice versa. I'm not in that camp. I expect they do exactly what they're reported to do with the Crowns -- project a very broad, unusually linear sound field into the room. I could work with that. Wish I had $20k. I'd be auditioning them next week.

Tim

joeinid · Nov 12, 2013

Tim,

I appreciate your point of view. Someone told me the Levinson combo retails for $46K. That's a lot of money and if the Crown Audio amps sound great, that would be awesome.

If anyone gets a chance to hear the M2/Crown Audio combo, I'd really love your opinion. I plan on listening for myself, but seek input from others here.

Bruce B · Nov 12, 2013

The most expensive Crown amp that Sweetwater sells is $1999.00 It's the XTI 6002
This stereo amp will put out 1.2k @ 8 ohms, 2.2k at 4 and 3k at 2! All this and only 24 lbs. !!

jap · Nov 12, 2013

Bruce B said:
The most expensive Crown amp that Sweetwater sells is $1999.00 It's the XTI 6002
This stereo amp will put out 1.2k @ 8 ohms, 2.2k at 4 and 3k at 2! All this and only 24 lbs. !!

They're selling the M2 monitors and 2 Crown I-Tech 5000HD amplifiers for $19,998.

The M2s are $12K, so they're obviously selling these Crown amps for more than $1999. each.

Duke LeJeune · Nov 12, 2013

Amir, what can you tell us about that dual diaphragm compression driver? From what I've been able to find online, it sounds like it uses two identical diaphragms, one behind the other, driven by separate voice coils, each of which receives the same signal. This is certainly a novel concept for a compression driver in my experience; I think BMS's dual diaphragms are concentric - that is, the smaller round high frequency diaphragm is in the middle of a larger donut-shaped mid frequency diaphragm. It almost sounds like the JBL configuration is a quasi-isobaric, wherein the the inner diaphragm relieves the backpressure on the back of the front diaphragm. If I'm mistaken about the configuration of the new JBL compression driver, please correct me.

And, what is it about this new configuration that enables it to offer improved performance vs conventional compression drivers?

I realize you may not have the answer to these questions, but I hope you don't mind my curiosity.

On another subject, I stand up and applaud JBL's attention to and success in minimizing the spectral discrepancy between the on- and off-axis sound. That is arguably the most important thing to get right in a high-end active system, because radiation pattern is one thing that DSP cannot do much about.

Very nice juggling of the (remarkably few) tradeoffs as well. There's a slight dip in the off-axis energy centered on roughly 700 Hz, and that's not a bad place at all for a dip. That's the "gank" region, one of two regions where imo a dip isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm under the impression that JBL is using an alloy in their voice coils whose resistance stays essentially constant as its temperature changes, which helps to alleviate a primay cause of thermal compression and thermal modulation. If I recall correctly, Earl Geddes applied for a patent on such an alloy years ago, but eventually abandoned it. Anyway, if that's what JBL is doing here, again that's a very intelligent upgrade.

Any comments you can pass along about these or any other technical aspects, I'm all ears.

Thanks!

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 13, 2013

Duke LeJeune said:
Amir, what can you tell us about that dual diaphragm compression driver? From what I've been able to find online, it sounds like it uses two identical diaphragms, one behind the other, driven by separate voice coils, each of which receives the same signal. This is certainly a novel concept for a compression driver in my experience; I think BMS's dual diaphragms are concentric - that is, the smaller round high frequency diaphragm is in the middle of a larger donut-shaped mid frequency diaphragm. It almost sounds like the JBL configuration is a quasi-isobaric, wherein the the inner diaphragm relieves the backpressure on the back of the front diaphragm. If I'm mistaken about the configuration of the new JBL compression driver, please correct me.

And, what is it about this new configuration that enables it to offer improved performance vs conventional compression drivers?

I realize you may not have the answer to these questions, but I hope you don't mind my curiosity.

On another subject, I stand up and applaud JBL's attention to and success in minimizing the spectral discrepancy between the on- and off-axis sound. That is arguably the most important thing to get right in a high-end active system, because radiation pattern is one thing that DSP cannot do much about.

Very nice juggling of the (remarkably few) tradeoffs as well. There's a slight dip in the off-axis energy centered on roughly 700 Hz, and that's not a bad place at all for a dip. That's the "gank" region, one of two regions where imo a dip isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm under the impression that JBL is using an alloy in their voice coils whose resistance stays essentially constant as its temperature changes, which helps to alleviate a primay cause of thermal compression and thermal modulation. If I recall correctly, Earl Geddes applied for a patent on such an alloy years ago, but eventually abandoned it. Anyway, if that's what JBL is doing here, again that's a very intelligent upgrade.

Any comments you can pass along about these or any other technical aspects, I'm all ears.

Thanks!

Haven't seen you in a while, Duke.good to have you around.

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · Nov 13, 2013

joeinid said:
Tim,

I appreciate your point of view. Someone told me the Levinson combo retails for $46K. That's a lot of money and if the Crown Audio amps sound great, that would be awesome.

If anyone gets a chance to hear the M2/Crown Audio combo, I'd really love your opinion. I plan on listening for myself, but seek input from others here.

I can't imagine that Harman would do the research, build one flagship speaker for both the pro and audiophile markets, and then package it with amplifiers that "sound bad." They're not dumb, and that scenario requires too much suspension of disbelief.

Tim

microstrip · Nov 13, 2013

It would be great for hobbyists and DIY if the speakers would be available without any electronics at a lower cost, as it will be an ideal platform for experimenting with active speakers. But I can imagine that Harman did not spend their money developing the M2 to support our debates or other developers - it seems they have a very strict policy on their sales. But sooner or later people will start experimenting ...

Intrigued by JBL M2 speaker system .... Opinions please ...

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