What's best in highly sensitive/efficient speakers.

spiritofmusic

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CTT, those Charney Concertos look the real deal, w the highly regarded AER drivers option at $28k.
That’s a v good price for a potentially super excellent sound.
 

Empirical Audio

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There is only one full-range high-efficiency speaker that does not use strange drivers or horns, Vapor Audio Nimbus. Nothing like it. Images almost as well as ribbons. Breaks windows with 30W.

Vapor Nimbus2.jpg

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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Here is a new rear loaded horn builder that I have had the pleasure of auditioning and plan to purchase in the near future:

http://charneyaudio.com/

Each of Charney's creations punch way above the price point with the Concerto being the best I have ever listened to.

CTT

Hi Toad,

Does the bass of the Concerto fire backwards? I have seen schematics that show air coming forwards off that split rear baffle thing but doesn’t seem correct.
 

spiritofmusic

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I’ve been known to occasionally mention Zu on these forums.
So I’ll do so again.
 

bonzo75

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Bill asked about bass backwards. The B is important
 

JackD201

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Since when Keith? I haven't logged on to AC in ages.
 

Leif S

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www.vonschweikert.com

JackD201

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Hello Viking. So you gonna do a new DB? LOL They worked well down to Keith's (Nephilim) 45 tube amps.
 

Folsom

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Since when Keith? I haven't logged on to AC in ages.

Ryan (owner) lost his wife in a fire at a hotel. As you may imagine... things have not been the best after that. It's hard to say what the future holds. I'd hoped that Vapor would really become a better more mature company prior to that. Who knows what happens now...

At least there are some very happy owners out there. Doug Schroeder has a pair as well.
 

C.T.Toad

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Jan 23, 2013
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Hi Toad,

Does the bass of the Concerto fire backwards? I have seen schematics that show air coming forwards off that split rear baffle thing but doesn’t seem correct.


Hi Bill,
I wouldn't say the bass fires backwards, but all of Charney's rear loaded horns couple with the room to produce bass. They are designed to be placed close to the front wall or in room corners. You can adjust the bass to your liking by moving them closer to or further out from the front wall. Since my first post I have picked up a pair of Maestro's with the Omega RS7 Driver. More than one friend has commented on the depth and quality of bass as well as imaging with the 3D soundstage they produce in my 11'x15'x8' room. I have known Brian Charney for about 11 years. For some time he was talking about building a high eff horn based on the tractrix theory. He has owned many high eff speakers (Avant Guard, Carfrae Little Big Horn, etc...) and knew he could build something better. In my opinion he has done it! A truly amazing sound experience to be had. If you live relatively near to Somerset NJ I highly recommend setting up an audition with Charney. If you live far away its a 20 minute drive from Newark Liberty Airport to his place. Brian will gladly pick you up and spend the afternoon spinning tunes.
About a month ago he called and asked me to stop by and check out the newest AER driver offering for the Concerto. I was gobsmacked at what I listened to. He kept asking "What do you think?" I replied "I don't have to think! It's all there!" I checked my mind at the door and was taken away by the music. No need to "listen" for certain things or make mental trade offs, just pure unadulterated music enveloping the room. I'm not much of an Opera fan but on the AER Concerto I couldn't get enough of it! Emotions dripping from the throat of the female soprano that moved me sung in a language I don't understand! I could go on but, hey all you wanted to know about was the direction the bass fires from.
Chris
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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Ryan (owner) lost his wife in a fire at a hotel. As you may imagine... things have not been the best after that. It's hard to say what the future holds. I'd hoped that Vapor would really become a better more mature company prior to that. Who knows what happens now...

At least there are some very happy owners out there. Doug Schroeder has a pair as well.

That is some very tragic news. I hope he will be able to recover from such a devastating loss.
 

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
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Hi Bill,
I wouldn't say the bass fires backwards, but all of Charney's rear loaded horns couple with the room to produce bass. They are designed to be placed close to the front wall or in room corners. You can adjust the bass to your liking by moving them closer to or further out from the front wall. Since my first post I have picked up a pair of Maestro's with the Omega RS7 Driver. More than one friend has commented on the depth and quality of bass as well as imaging with the 3D soundstage they produce in my 11'x15'x8' room. I have known Brian Charney for about 11 years. For some time he was talking about building a high eff horn based on the tractrix theory. He has owned many high eff speakers (Avant Guard, Carfrae Little Big Horn, etc...) and knew he could build something better. In my opinion he has done it! A truly amazing sound experience to be had. If you live relatively near to Somerset NJ I highly recommend setting up an audition with Charney. If you live far away its a 20 minute drive from Newark Liberty Airport to his place. Brian will gladly pick you up and spend the afternoon spinning tunes.
About a month ago he called and asked me to stop by and check out the newest AER driver offering for the Concerto. I was gobsmacked at what I listened to. He kept asking "What do you think?" I replied "I don't have to think! It's all there!" I checked my mind at the door and was taken away by the music. No need to "listen" for certain things or make mental trade offs, just pure unadulterated music enveloping the room. I'm not much of an Opera fan but on the AER Concerto I couldn't get enough of it! Emotions dripping from the throat of the female soprano that moved me sung in a language I don't understand! I could go on but, hey all you wanted to know about was the direction the bass fires from.
Chris

Thanks, Chris. Yes the Concerto looks really very interesting especially coupled with an AER BD4! Alas I am in UK so it would be really far to visit. That said I sometimes come to Princeton with work so never know.
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Ryan (owner) lost his wife in a fire at a hotel. As you may imagine... things have not been the best after that. It's hard to say what the future holds. I'd hoped that Vapor would really become a better more mature company prior to that. Who knows what happens now...

At least there are some very happy owners out there. Doug Schroeder has a pair as well.

Last time I spoke with Ryan he was planning to hire more help so that he could deliver better customer service and shorter lead-times.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
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Canberra Australia
I cannot help noticing in this thread people mixing sensitivity with efficiency a common confusion

They are not really the same thing but have similarities

Most speakers are very inefficient about 1% or so ie conversion of electrical energy into acoustic energy.

This is often the reason people wonder why an amplifier based on sensitivity won’t actually drive a speaker adequately, because although sensitivity across a speaker remains normalised, efficiency of various components of a speaker vary considerably, due to current draw.

Sensitivity measurements has a fundamental assumption that the amplifier will always be able to provide sufficient current, for some difficult impedance speakers this may not actually hold true despite the sensitivity of its rating, a recent discussion about the Tannoy Westminster a case in point elsewhere on WBF

Conversely Devore 0/96 is both higher Sensitivity than average and a very benign load also, making it very easy to drive

Note also that electrostatic bass panels are often very efficient but the speaker may have relatively low sensitivity but very little current is required as the bass panel is of such high impedance eg CLX, which is why tube amplifiers with low current capability often drive electrostatics easily despite their sensitivity.

I provide an explanatory link

https://www.stereophile.com/content/measuring-loudspeakers-part-one-page-3
 

C.T.Toad

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2013
17
3
130
Coastal South Jersey
Thanks, Chris. Yes the Concerto looks really very interesting especially coupled with an AER BD4! Alas I am in UK so it would be really far to visit. That said I sometimes come to Princeton with work so never know.

Bill, Charney Audio is about a 30min drive from Princeton. If your without transportation I'm sure Brian would have no problem arranging a pick up and return.

Chris
 

Loheswaran

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Dec 19, 2014
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Very helpful

I have heard quite a few high efficiency speakers. All of them have trade-offs which you may or may not find important, depending on your preference for sound.

- Large horn speakers (e.g. Avantgarde Duo, Trio, or Acapella): the most explosive dynamics and able to fill the room with sound. However, more often than not the horns do not integrate properly and imaging is very poor. Needs a large room and budget.

- Dual Concentric (e.g. Tannoy). I have heard quite a few of these, and nearly all of them have natural lifelike dynamics (horns can sound a little excessive), wonderful coherency, and superb imaging. The downside is the rosy coloration or a midrange thickness that makes everything sound rather 1950's. The other downside is that they should not be played too loud, otherwise you may damage the speaker.

- Full range single driver (e.g. Coral). I have not heard a single one of these speakers which I like - rolled off top and bottom, and they sound small and incapable of filling a room with sound (unless you have a small room).

- Boxed multi-driver (e.g. Zu and WLM). These tend to vary quite a lot and do not have a sonic signature which can be generalized to the whole class of speaker. I find most boxed speakers to be fairly boring in sound and it's difficult for me to get excited about these.

You sound (sorry for the pun) as if you have tried quite a lot.
I think I recall a very good article in HiFi World, and it was interesting insofar as the conclusion was that the speaker is the most inherently coloured part of an audio chain, and with all designs there are significant compromises that when faced off against another topology they are found wanting elsewhere.

The first speaker to absolutely blow my mind with imaging were, as it happens, some Avantgarde Unos (or was it Solos) I thought it was utterly magical. I wonder if it is my ears romanticising the past, or if they truly were the best speakers I have heard. I am always drawn to the idea of horns, but alas, I now have a very small room with monitor style set up, and but for Rethms smallest speakers I think horns are out of the question
 

andromedaaudio

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If the topic starter would have said minimum 20 Watts i d say my designs off course., And i mean really drive from house to jazz to orchestra
 

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