Spectral DMA 400s arrive in New Jersey

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi Rob,
I'm not sure I would agree. The VTL 7.5III specs are clear. They say nothing of the input impedance requirements of the gear it is driving.. Its OWN input impedance is 50K ohms (20K min). But very clearly it will deliver full output, 30V, into "10K or above". I've also confirmed that they will drive a 10K load with Luke Manley.

Output Impedance 25 Ohms (Max 150 ohms at 10Hz)
Input Impedance 50K Ohms (20k ohms min)
Maximum Output
Voltage < 1% THD
30V into 10K or above 10Hz – 200kHz +/- 1 dB
10V into 600 ohms

As far as low bass, I would say I find myself easily tempted to have too much bass, which necessitates a tweak to my DSP curve. I have system weaknesses, believe me, but bass thinness is the least of them!!

The VTL's output impedance is low for a tube preamp; OTOH, I think like the cj, it's a "hybrid" as it doesn't use a cathode follower? That allows the designer to drop the output impedance and like you said, the VTL should be able to drive the Spectral amps.

Back in the TAS circa issue 20-30, Dave Wilson gave a formula to calculate this compatability. The penalty back in those days was a loss of low end, dynamics and an inability to drive long cable runs.
 

puroagave

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Hi Rob,
I'm not sure I would agree. The VTL 7.5III specs are clear. They say nothing of the input impedance requirements of the gear it is driving.. Its OWN input impedance is 50K ohms (20K min). But very clearly it will deliver full output, 30V, into "10K or above". I've also confirmed that they will drive a 10K load with Luke Manley.

Output Impedance 25 Ohms (Max 150 ohms at 10Hz)
Input Impedance 50K Ohms (20k ohms min)
Maximum Output
Voltage < 1% THD
30V into 10K or above 10Hz – 200kHz +/- 1 dB
10V into 600 ohms

As far as low bass, I would say I find myself easily tempted to have too much bass, which necessitates a tweak to my DSP curve. I have system weaknesses, believe me, but bass thinness is the least of them!!

Marty, you're absolutely right, my bad. I was reading the specs for the 5.5. the 7.5 has a maximum output impedance of 150? which is well within minimum to drive the spectral's 1ok? input impedance. I ran into a problem with a CJ 17LS w/ 850? output into a DMA-150S and the low bass was lacking. I'm trying the latest CJ et5 later this week which is at 100?, it should be good. sorry about the confusion.
 
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marty

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The Spectral 400s are now fully broken in and my assessment of their merits remains as enthusiastic as before. However, I'm really perplexed about a recent addition I thought would be a no-brainer, but it turns out that I'm wondering if I'm the one missing part of my brain. The Shunyata Alpha digital cables have received great buzz on WBF and due to their nearly universal acclaim, I bought some. Recall my front end is largely Shunyatatized (Python to Triton, Cobras from Triton to both VTL 7.5 II preamp and to Meitner XDS-1 player. I first placed an Alpha digital PC to my TacT 2.2XP unit that I use for DSP and the results were outstanding. Its hard to describe the insidiousness of digital haze until it's removed, which is what the Alpha did very convincingly on the TacT. But my results with the Meitner are not as nearly impressive. There is perhaps a glimmer of improvement in the 5-7K region, but the bass just isn't close to what I can render using the Cobra. The Alpha digital resulted in a overall loss of low end weight below 100Hz, as though the entire bass range was attenuated by approximately 0.2dB. Believe me, that amount matters a lot. Orchestral weight is reduced, and in addition bass definition and extension are inferior so overall, I'm rather disappointed. Every time I substitute the Cobra, the fullness and balance that I expect returns and I'm a happy camper again.

So my questions are twofold. First, has anyone else noticed some thinness of their system when they substitute the Alpha digital? And second, I have been told that the Alpha digital takes a long time to break-in so the question is; how long exactly? It's true that bass is often the last thing to "come in" with new cables, but at 5 days, am I being too impatient? It's very rare in my experience to think things will get noticeably better after 5 days to the point that things go from "ouch" to "OMG". Incremental improvements, perhaps. Any insight on the bass reproduction of the Alpha digitals would be appreciated. To be honest, now that I hear the benefit of the Cobras over the Alpha digitals for this particular application, I'm tempted to try Pythons and just sell the Alpha digitals. But my good audio buddies Russ and Steve think I'm being too hasty in giving up on the Alpha digitals. Personally, I'm not so sure. Thoughts?
 
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jap

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The Spectral 400s are now fully broken in and my assessment of their merits remains as enthusiastic as before. However, I'm really perplexed about a recent addition I thought would be a no-brainer, but it turns out that I'm wondering if I'm the one missing part of my brain. The Shunyata Alpha digital cables have received great buzz on WBF and due to their nearly universal acclaim, I bought some. Recall my front end is largely Shunyatatized (Python to Triton, Cobras from Triton to both VTL 7.5 II preamp and to Meitner XDS-1 player. I first placed an Alpha digital PC to my TacT 2.2XP unit that I use for DSP and the results were outstanding. Its hard to describe the insidiousness of digital haze until it's removed, which is what the Alpha did very convincingly on the TacT. But my results with the Meitner are not as nearly impressive. There is perhaps a glimmer of improvement in the 5-7K region, but the bass just isn't close to what I can render using the Cobra. The Alpha digital resulted in a overall loss of low end weight below 100Hz, as though the entire bass range was attenuated by approximately 0.2dB. Believe me, that amount matters a lot. Orchestral weight is reduced, and in addition bass definition and extension are inferior so overall, I'm rather disappointed. Everytime I substitute the Cobra, the fullness and balance that I expect returns and I'm a happy camper again.

So my questions are twofold. First, has anyone else noticed some thinness of their system when they substitute the Alpha digital? And second, I have been told that the Alpha digital takes a long time to break-in so the question is; how long exactly? It's true that bass is often the last thing to "come in" with new cables, but at 5 days, am I being too impatient? It's very rare in my experience to think things will get noticeably better after 5 days to the point that things go from "ouch" to "OMG". Incremental improvements, perhaps. Any insight on the bass reproduction of the Alpha digitals would be appreciated. To be honest, now that I hear the benefit of the Cobras over the Alpha digitals for this particular application, I'm tempted to try Pythons and just sell the Alpha digitals. But my good audio buddies Russ and Steve think I'm being too hasty in givign up on the Alpha digitals. Personally, I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

As I posted here:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...aconda-second-impressions&p=233683#post233683

The Meitner DAC has a much more sophisticated SMPS than the one in your TacT, and probably doesn't need the additional noise filtering of the Alpha Digital.
 

GuidoCorona

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Marty, further Break-in Patience is my warm recommendation. I have not used the Z-tron Alpha digital, but I have broken in a number of Shunyata cords, including Anaconda Helix, and King Cobras CX and Z-tron. In spite of assertions to the contrary from some quarters, my experience has invariably been that substantial break-in of these wonderful PCs persists until approximately 300 hours of operation, after which evolution becomes markedly asymptotic. that. 120 hours seems quite shy of stabilization. G.
 
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GrantS

Industry Expert
Oct 23, 2013
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Hi Marty,

The Zi-Tron Alpha Digital has sold in sufficient numbers now that we have a very good feel for the break-in cycle and performance overall. I can't guarantee where your experience will end up of course, but I do know based on your comparison with the Cobra and comments that the Alpha will very likely change in character and performance fairly dramatically over the course of another 24-48 hours. One, the Alpha Digital power cord is not any different from the Cobra in terms of the quality and gauge of the wire, so there should be no difference in frequency extension and bass weight. Second, the fact that the Zi-Tron circuit is a bit more involved than in the Cobra means that break-in may last 1-3 days longer than the normal Cobra. Third, that thinness you mention is a very common trait of our Zi-Tron power cords as they near the final stage of break in.

Of course, each system and user experience can be different so whatever your conclusions are, we are interested in the outcome. My comments reflect our dealers, distributors and the customers shared experience as well as our own testing but we are still in the first few months of feedback so all feedback is relevant. So far, I've had positive responses from the few that have tried the Alpha with Mietner front end components, so I don't believe there is any interaction issue. Obviously, my sample size is small thus far on feedback from that combination.

If you have any questions, feel free to e-mail directly. I'm out of the country at the moment but I do get e-mail sent to my grant@shunyata.com address.

Best regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research
 

marty

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I thought that enough time and testing has gone by to provide an update on the performance of the zitron alpha digitals (ZAD) in my Spectral based system. Grant is right, 5 days is a milestone for the cable as the bass starts to come in around then. Basically it's not productive to listen until then. The bass is in good form by day seven and is darn good at 2 weeks. With 400 hours on the alphas, I think I have a sense of their measure. First, I should say that I've been alerted to another audiophile's comments on another blog that suggested his preference for the Python cable on his DAC in lieu of the ZAD. He believed the Python resulted in a marked improvement in the bass, midrange as well as treble areas. I respectfully disagree. I am in complete agreement that the ZAD are inferior to the Python in the bass region. It is as if the orchestral floor (20-80 Hz) is reduced in relative weight by something nominal but perceptible such as 0.2 dB. Its not overwhelmingly thinner, but it's noticeable, especially in a system with Gotham caliber subwoofers. However, what the Python lacks is the special feature of the alpha that is its calling card; namely the reduction of digital noise which is what makes the midrange and treble "pop" from a blacker background. Unfortunately, once you hear that, you simply can't go back to a non-alpha cable. There is no question the Python platform is superior in its performance in the bass and mid-bass compared to the Cobra platform on which the Zitron alpha cable is built. The fundamental bass frequency range has more extension, weight and bloom through a Python compared to the ZAD. My net take on the ZAD is that it is indeed a superb cable because of what it achieves in the marked reduction in digital hash that provides a new relief for the midrange and treble. In effect, it contributes to an improved "reach out and touch me" soundscape that is lacking with a non ZAD cable. But sadly, I do not think the ZAD is a complete performer because of the bass limitations, minor that they may be. You also don't have to be Einstein to guess what's next, which is simply for Shunyata to apply the Zitron digital circuit to the Python rather than the Cobra platform. Hmmm, could there be a Shunyata "beta" digital around the corner anyone? I can't see why not. It's the perfect path for product expansion of the Shunyata digital PC line and I'll bet we see it sooner rather than later.
 
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MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Jap, that cable does sound intriguing. Surely someone out there has tested it in their system head to head against the Shunyata Zitron Alpha digital?

I think Bruce has listened to the JPS cables.
 

marty

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It’s been over a year since I updated my system notes. When I look back over that period I think I made some significant changes to the system and thought I would describe here.

I’d like to share with you five changes that have been incorporated into the system since I acquired the Spectral 400 amplifiers. Each has imparted relative benefits that continue to inspire me as a hobbyist and music lover.

Let’s begin with the conversion of cabling to MIT from Nordost Valhalla. As everyone knows, the Spectral gear requires the use of MIT cabling. Although I was initially compelled to acquire some pieces of MIT cables as a result of acquiring the Spectral amps, (i.e, interconnects to and speaker cables from the amps) I have since relinquished virtually all of my Nordost Valhalla cabling and the system is now entirely wired with MIT (MA-X and Matrix 60 interconnects), as well as Oracle Matrix HD90 Rev 1 speaker wire to the Pipedream towers. (A single pair of Nordost Valhalla interconnects are still used to drive the Gotham subwoofers and I’m in no rush to replace them). The benefits of moving all but completely to MIT from Nordost throughout the system were sonically significant and easily heard. The motivation for doing the complete change occurred after I made the initial cable change to MIT as necessitated by the addition of the Spectral amps. Only then did I realize by its absence, a slight reduction of upper mid-range grain that was present with the Nordost cables that I was using. I reasoned that if this grain diminished significantly with the conversion of a single pair of MIT interconnect/speaker cables, then further replacement of all my Valhalla interconnects might be even further rewarding. Indeed, as more MIT cabling was gradually substituted for Valhalla, this attribute (less grain) further increased. In summary, the MIT gear brought a new level of naturalness and ease of listening, unaccompanied by the subtle grain I now associate with Nordost Valhalla only in retrospect. I was certainly pleased by the Nordost products I used over most of the past decade but honestly, was surprised that I found a product I liked significantly more.

The second round of enhancements occurred as I continued to drink more of the Shunyata Kool-Aid. Currently, I have a Triton/Typhon powering the front end with an Alpha HC from wall to Triton; an Alpha HC umbilical connecting the Triton to the Typhon; and a Zitron Anaconda from Triton to the VTL 7.5 III preamp. The newest change commenced in December replacing two Zitron Alpha digital ACs with two the latest Sigma digital equivalents. These powered the Meitner XDS1 rev2 and modified TacT 2.2XP crossover/DSP unit respectively. The Spectral amps each run directly to their dedicated 40Amp wall circuits via Zitron Alpha HC AC cables.

As is my custom, substitutions are generally made one product at a time, and for that reason, I have not provided a final assessment on the addition of the two Sigma digital AC cords since this is a rather long and tedious evaluation process due to the extensive break-in time of the Shunyata digital cables. I have now broken in four of these babies; 2 Alpha digitals and 2 Sigma digitals and there are remarkable similarities in the break-in curve among them. To begin, the best chance you will get to hear what these cables will ultimately do occurs at the 24-hour mark. That does not mean you will hear the final results, but rather, you can get a sense of the potential benefits in store. This observation speaks to a comment once made by the venerable HP who said that it was easy for him to tell a great product right out of the box, although there are certainly refinements that occur with break-in.

For those that are taking the trip for the first time, the most impressive change one can hear immediately is the significant disappearance of digital artifact. Things sound quieter, smoother, and frankly, less fatiguing. If the cable did nothing else, this is their main attribute and it’s a hell of an impressive one. At 48 hours, things begin to sour and at 4 days, your first thought should be “what the hell have I done?” The appearance of grit and grain in the low treble (4K) is not only annoying, but you will be convinced that nothing short of an exorcism will remove this anomaly. Welcome to 12 days of hell. I would highly encourage you to go on vacation during that time. Go fishing, go skiing, go work in a food kitchen or go watch the last play of the Super Bowl 500 more times. But whatever you do, try not to listen to your system during that time. It will only be an exercise in frustration. To make matters worse, on day 16, the bass becomes so sluggish that you might be tempted to substitute molasses for the cables, so certain are you that nothing can make the sound arrive any slower than it does.

And then, an epiphany! I have experienced this on 4 separate occasions and I found it shocking how reproducibly it occurred. On day 17, the heavens open up and the sibilants sound cleaner than ever before, and most dramatically, the bass comes “in” all its glory. From this point on, things just get better and better through day 21. At that point, the sound stage increases in width until its maximum potential is achieved and you finally sense the result was well worth waiting for as painful as it may have been. The other sonic clue that break-in is complete is when you get a new sense of increased palpability from the midrange that was not there previously. On day 24, the transformation is all but complete. Of course, this phenomenon of events may be unique to my system, and YMMV. However, I suspect I am not alone here. The take away point here is that I encourage you not to form a hard and fast opinion on any of the Shunyata digital PCs for about a month. And now you know the reason I was not prepared to comment on the sonic benefits of adding these cables (one at a time) to my system for 2 months.

Although I loved the Alpha digitals, the Sigma digitals are something else again even though the family similarity is obvious. The changes I noticed by substituting the Sigma digitals for the Alpha digitals can be heard in 3 main areas. The first is the bass. I have commented previously that that the change in bass is both qualitative and quantitative with the Sigma digital. Most folks will easily notice that the quality of their bass response is improved. Transient attack is quicker and decay is quicker. This nets out to “better base” in the usual perceived way. I do believe the effect on bass levels is such that there is a very small increase in bass volume from 20Hz- 50Hz in the range of 0.25dB. As mentioned previously, this will likely be considered a blip on anyone’s real room low frequency response curve, but it is nevertheless real, at least in my hands since I have a DSP tool to play with which allows me to make very fine volume comparisons. (That does not mean I understand this one bit as I am perplexed how it is even conceivable that wires can impart an apparent change of gain, so I’ll just shake my head on this issue and move on. I suspect this is somehow related to lowering the noise floor of the system by the use of the Sigma cable and leave it at that.)

The second area of improvement with the Sigma digitals is the increased resolution of “air” in my system. I have an acceptably wide sound stage but like most good performing systems, the best resolution of depth occurs in the middle of the sound stage. I find it tougher to discriminate sound stage depth at the extremes of the soundstage. However, with the Sigmas, I believe the ability to identify the back of the orchestral stage is easier as the stage widens compared to the Alphas, and it is the top end reproduction of “air” that I attribute to for being able to discern this effect.

Finally, and perhaps most enticingly, the midrange increases to new level of “palpability” with the Sigma digital that I have not known previously. We could have a long discussion about what I am calling “palpability”, but I think a simple explanation for what I am hearing and it is this: it is the result of hearing singers or instruments in foreground that I have heard previously but on a quieter background so the sound field stands out in greater relieve than the background from which it emanates. To me, that is the hallmark of the Shunyata experience and the property that seems to be consistently found among Shunyata products, which make it unique. This makes some sense to me as it is the beneficial reduction of noise that seems to be Shunyata’s calling card and underlies the rationale for the use of the filters Caelin uses in his gear.

Since the reduction of noise, digital or otherwise, seems to be a hallmark of Shunyata gear, without any associated detriments such as loss of dynamics or changes in instrument timbre, I’m going to go out on a limb here and express my thoughts as to the Shunyata products that have impressed me the most in this regard and are therefore the Shunyata products that I’d take to a desert island, so to speak.

Absolute “must-have” Shunyata products:
1) Typhon
2) Sigma digital cable
3) Anaconda digital cable (AES or SPDIF)

These products all exemplify the maximal expression of the single feature I remarked on earlier that I find so compelling; they increase the “palpability” of the music. In my experience, a lot of things can make music background quieter but they do not, in my experience, make the appearance of the musical field come ever so slightly but perceptively forward from between the plane of the speakers in a way that seems to increase their palpability in the room the way these products do. Moreover, each does it in its own way. Much has been said about the Typhon is this regard those comments do need not be repeated here. It is in some ways the most unique product Shunyata makes and I believe I have heard Caelin quoted as saying exactly that. To paraphrase: “nothing else does what a Typhon can do”. Damned if I know what the hell that flooby dust does inside the unit. But I’ll take two please. (Wish I could!) In a former comment made some time ago, I noticed the “palpability factor “property immediately in the revised Anaconda AES digital cable. As already discussed, I think the Sigma digital cable achieves this unique result as well.

I would like to make a comment that I hope is not taken the wrong way, but for those of you lamenting that the Sigma digital cable is beyond your financial grasp, please consider that the Alpha digital as a world-beater product that provides much of the same benefit as the Sigma for a far more affordable price. It may lack the last vestige of bass improvement or midrange palpability as the Sigma, but the overall improvement in banishing digital noise and artifact makes it a must-own product in its own right. In fact, if I had to say where in the Shunyata product line most people might derive the most benefit from drinking the Shunyata Kool-Aid, it would be the Alpha digital cable (if you own any digital gear). It is truly unique and offers more than a glimpse of what a fully Shunyatatized system can offer.

I’m delighted to report that the third change I made that let’s the system sing with its best voice to date, was dirt cheap! One of the greatest liabilities in my system has always been the integration of my Pipedream panels with my Gotham subwoofers. So, what else is new? Isn’t this the Holy Grail that escapes the grasp of almost anyone trying to blend midrange/treble towers with good subwoofers? I have always been frankly jealous and frankly pissed off when I listen to the beautiful linearity and seamlessness in the range of 80-200Hz so masterfully rendered in speakers such as the big Wilsons when I listen at Steve’s in SoCal or a Brian’s in DFW. Try as I might, I simply could never get there, until now! (OK, sort of.) I discovered a tool that has helped my bridge this area in a major way in the past few months, and that is the CD made by Granite Audio that I have discussed here:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...udio-Ultimate-Bass-CD&highlight=granite+audio

Of course, one has to have the capabilities of fine amplitude adjustment to realize the full potential of using the Granite CD, but fortunately, I have DSP capability so this simple tool really earned its keep. Am I there? Do I now have what I have coveted on the Alexandria’s, namely, a remarkably seamless bass to mid-bass conversion that is linear and darn impressive? The answer is: not quite, but the improvement has been extremely substantial whereby I lose less sleep than I used to perseverating about this critical but menacing area of sound reproduction.

The final two system improvements were also cheap ones. In fact, the first was free. Meitner recently announced a firmware change for their XDS1 Rev2 player that I installed to good effect. Call me crazy, but I am rather partial to the Meitner sound. I have found that their top end in particular, is simply more analog-like than many competitors. Lastly, I finally splurged big time and spent $129 on the Channel D Pure Music software package that allows me to play back my computer library selections from memory rather than from the HD itself. I’m a total novice in this space but to me, the improvement in sound seems a rather impressive accomplishment for such a small expense. And I can’t rave enough about the fact that complete phone support is always available for free! And it is with a real person! Even better, there is no need for a decoder ring to understand what is being said!

To summarize, I think my system has come a considerable distance over the past year or so. It has allowed me to enjoy music reproduction at home even more so than before and that of course, is the whole idea, right?

I’ve been fortunate to have some recent visitors make favorable comments, and that is always rewarding as a hobbyist:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-s-system-Analysis-Audio-etc&highlight=jersey

But the comment I found the funniest was when I hosted a long time friend who is a reserve trumpet player with the Philadelphia Orchestra. He was foremost, very insightful as first he helped me nail the correct timbre of the trumpets with a little tweak of my DSP unit. (The difference in “warmth” when one adds 0.1dB at around 100Hz is noticeable and impressive) I then played him the LP of Reiner’s legendary Scheherazade (Living Stereo) and after a period of some silence he turned to me and said “Marty, Reiner never heard it this good”. We got a good laugh out of that but he was serious when he commented that as a player, nobody in the symphony typically appreciates the listener’s perspective from the hall. As a trumpet player, what he hears mostly are naturally the instruments nearest to him when he plays. He therefore found it very rewarding to hear good reproduction from the vantage point of a listener in the audience. Wow, I would never have expected that comment from a bonafide symphony player but of course, it makes sense!

So, what’s next? I must admit I’m quite content at the moment. Yes, there’s always something next. When I can swing it, there’s always the Sigma HC cables to consider, and perhaps a new Triton II or a Typhon for the power amps. But spring is right around the corner. Got to save those dollars now for rhododendrons and azaleas. I’m afraid the garden needs some serious work.
 
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Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Thanks Marty. As one of those few who have heard your system I can attest to it being one of the best systems I have ever heard. I also concur completely about your Shunysta comments. Next up for you Marty has to be Stillpoints.
 

CGabriel

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Thank you Marty. That is probably the best description of what a Sigma power cord can do for an audio system that I have read.

Just as an aside: we still recommend that the power cords should be burned-in with a fan. This can significantly reduce the burn-in time. We make a "burn-in adapter" that is quite inexpensive and allows you to daisy-chain several power cords so that they can all be burned-in on a single fan or high output lamp.
 

bonzo75

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marty

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Ked,
I thought Shun Mook feet were better for equipment on shelves not speakers, no? My sense with Stillpoints is that if the speaker can move or slide forward relatively easily (i.e. panels), spikes are the way to go whereas if they have significant weight (i.e. subwoofers) they might be best for that application. Same for the Shun Mooks devices? Can the shallow tips of the Shun Mook devices penetrate carpet to get to, say, a concrete floor underneath?
Marty
 

bonzo75

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Ked,
I thought Shun Mook feet were better for equipment on shelves not speakers, no? My sense with Stillpoints is that if the speaker can move or slide forward relatively easily (i.e. panels), spikes are the way to go whereas if they have significant weight (i.e. subwoofers) they might be best for that application. Same for the Shun Mooks devices? Can the shallow tips of the Shun Mook devices penetrate carpet to get to, say, a concrete floor underneath?
Marty

Hi yes, they are not for speakers, but components. The tips go down.
 

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