Are the "cheaper" dCS models the best digital

caesar · Apr 18, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Ceasar,

I have only heard DCS Elgar Plus/Verona and i just heard the Scarlatti Transport, Clock, DAC today in a system i know very well (many of the parts incl the speakers i used to own). Here is my personal take compared with my own Zanden. Redbook only since Zanden is 16/44.1, though i did also hear SACDs on DCS.

1. The DCS is a stunning achievement. It is a far more technically accomplished piece of equipment than its predecessor, as well as the ARC 7, 8, Krell 505 (all costing far, far less) which i heard in the same system. It leaves a wide gap in technical performance. Dead silent background, extraordinary retrieval of decay and detail, and also carries a natural tonality with its music that is probably the most noticeable improvement over the Elgar Plus.
2. I found a near-complete lack of "shimmer" which i often hear on digital sources. the treble is totally solid which is a shock the first time you hear it
3. Further, its Filters 1-4 help shape things a bit. In fact, i would say that given how technically accomplished it is, and how variable its settings are...you have the very strong ability to set it into many, many systems and get remarkable sound.
3. Now...here is the rub. We played with the system a good deal all afternoon to optimize. In the end, i would knowingly sacrifice the pitch black background, the extraordinary detail...and the lack of shimmer for my Zanden for one reason alone...liquidity/musicality. The DCS (to my ears) felt a touch, a spec, a nano-milli-something dry for my personal taste, and as a result i found myself marveling at its delivery of VERY NATURAL SOUND...but i stopped listening to the music. Honestly, i cannot say why...i just did. With the Zanden with its relative "flaws" or imperfections, i found that i just listened to music...i listen to Starker vs Rostropovich, Gardiner vs Klemperer...NOT cymbal decay here vs cymbal decay there. i found myself "flipping tracks" much more with the DCS...to hear that first bit of decay, or that bass hit there...as soon as i went to Zanden...i stopped doing that, and kept hesitating to change tracks because it killed me to stop the music.

in sum, i respect the DCS deeply...and those who own them are truly fortunate to have such an immense player. it is in a class unto itself relative to the CD8, Wadia reference, Esoteric X-01, (older) Emm Labs CDSA, even in technical terms to the Zanden. But i would not trade my Zanden for it.

Yes, I have heard the Scarlatti a few times as well, and I pretty much agree with your observations. The main issue with the Scarlatti is that it is a system. Once you start removing parts of the stack, it becomes just plain ordinary, and approaches the sound of the single box Puccini unit.

I have not had a chance to compare it to other high end players, however, and your observations about Zanden are very enlightening. And that is why I'm so down on audio reviews, who don't bother with comps...

With that said, I know I could live with the Scarlatti ever after. But only if my portfolio were to double many, many times over.

caesar · Apr 18, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Ceasar,

I have only heard DCS Elgar Plus/Verona and i just heard the Scarlatti Transport, Clock, DAC today in a system i know very well (many of the parts incl the speakers i used to own). Here is my personal take compared with my own Zanden. Redbook only since Zanden is 16/44.1, though i did also hear SACDs on DCS.

1. The DCS is a stunning achievement. It is a far more technically accomplished piece of equipment than its predecessor, as well as the ARC 7, 8, Krell 505 (all costing far, far less) which i heard in the same system. It leaves a wide gap in technical performance. Dead silent background, extraordinary retrieval of decay and detail, and also carries a natural tonality with its music that is probably the most noticeable improvement over the Elgar Plus.
2. I found a near-complete lack of "shimmer" which i often hear on digital sources. the treble is totally solid which is a shock the first time you hear it
3. Further, its Filters 1-4 help shape things a bit. In fact, i would say that given how technically accomplished it is, and how variable its settings are...you have the very strong ability to set it into many, many systems and get remarkable sound.
3. Now...here is the rub. We played with the system a good deal all afternoon to optimize. In the end, i would knowingly sacrifice the pitch black background, the extraordinary detail...and the lack of shimmer for my Zanden for one reason alone...liquidity/musicality. The DCS (to my ears) felt a touch, a spec, a nano-milli-something dry for my personal taste, and as a result i found myself marveling at its delivery of VERY NATURAL SOUND...but i stopped listening to the music. Honestly, i cannot say why...i just did. With the Zanden with its relative "flaws" or imperfections, i found that i just listened to music...i listen to Starker vs Rostropovich, Gardiner vs Klemperer...NOT cymbal decay here vs cymbal decay there. i found myself "flipping tracks" much more with the DCS...to hear that first bit of decay, or that bass hit there...as soon as i went to Zanden...i stopped doing that, and kept hesitating to change tracks because it killed me to stop the music.

in sum, i respect the DCS deeply...and those who own them are truly fortunate to have such an immense player. it is in a class unto itself relative to the CD8, Wadia reference, Esoteric X-01, (older) Emm Labs CDSA, even in technical terms to the Zanden. But i would not trade my Zanden for it.

What was the rest of the system, out of curiosity?

caesar · Apr 18, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
2. I found a near-complete lack of "shimmer" which i often hear on digital sources. the treble is totally solid which is a shock the first time you hear it

The treble is quite good also on Playback Designs and Meridian also, and supposedly on EMM XDS1, but I have not yet heard the EMM yet. I am not sure if it's the apodizing filters or something else. But the improvement in the latest generation of expensive digital is unquestionable and will undoubtedly keep the vinyl guys from flipping their system on when they are feeling lazy.

LL21 · Apr 20, 2011

Hi Caesar,

The system was SF STrads, Krell Evo 402e, DCS Scarlatti Transport, Clock, DAC and Transp Ref Cable throughout. I agree with your comments about latest generation of digital, as well. It is a shame the mainstream has gone backwards over the last 15-20 years...from LP to tape to CD to MP3. While the high end has clearly advanced...i cannot but imagine it would be even further along if music availability were there. But instead, we are seeing CDs become harder to find with mp3 the market standard, and hi-res struggling to hit the mainstream.

mep · Apr 20, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Hi Caesar,

The system was SF STrads, Krell Evo 402e, DCS Scarlatti Transport, Clock, DAC and Transp Ref Cable throughout. I agree with your comments about latest generation of digital, as well. It is a shame the mainstream has gone backwards over the last 15-20 years...from LP to tape to CD to MP3. While the high end has clearly advanced...i cannot but imagine it would be even further along if music availability were there. But instead, we are seeing CDs become harder to find with mp3 the market standard, and hi-res struggling to hit the mainstream.

Are you saying that going from LPs to tape is going backward?

LL21 · Apr 20, 2011

Tape...as in audio cassette tape...not RTR.

caesar · Apr 20, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Hi Caesar,

The system was SF STrads, Krell Evo 402e, DCS Scarlatti Transport, Clock, DAC and Transp Ref Cable throughout. I agree with your comments about latest generation of digital, as well. It is a shame the mainstream has gone backwards over the last 15-20 years...from LP to tape to CD to MP3. While the high end has clearly advanced...i cannot but imagine it would be even further along if music availability were there. But instead, we are seeing CDs become harder to find with mp3 the market standard, and hi-res struggling to hit the mainstream.

Yes, it is sad about the mp3 trend, but folks' number one criteria is convenience.

Sometimes I wonder how much the Scarlatti would cost if it were produced by the thousands instead of just a handful each month. But the reality is that it costs as much as an Audi A8 or a loaded Mercedes CLS! And it is mind boggling that the other higher tier cd players cost $15K+ - like a solid, used Honda or a Toyota.

bmichels · Jun 8, 2013

Elliot G. said:
I have listened to all of the models including the CD player with their outboard clock. I really loved the Scarlatti ( 80k piece) and a few of my friends own this unit and use it directly into their power amps. I think that this product is truly a reference caliber product. MY second choice after listening to many other digital playback systems was the Meridian which I think is really terrific and very musical sounding.

Elliot G., could you tell me exactly what Meridian product are you mentioning ? (they have a whole range of gears) Thanks

egidius · Jun 8, 2013

P8 no way.

JackD201 said:
I hated the P8. It was almost as if it came from a different company. It was thin and mechanical.

+1

(it actually made me give up a dealer who tried to sell me one really hard edged. Shortly afterwards I found a Bow ZZ8, which I kept and updated to the current latest mkIII mod. Never looked at dCS again, even though i listened politely to Puccini. And the higher up models are too much money for me)

flez007 · Jun 8, 2013

lloydelee21 said:
... But i would not trade my Zanden for it.

Neither do I if I ever own a Zanden DAC

LL21 · Jun 8, 2013

flez007 said:
Neither do I if I ever own a Zanden DAC

Lee · Jun 8, 2013

A consensus emerged among my friends who went to Newport that the MSB Analog DAC stole the show. Two trustworthy friends believe it was better than the dcs gear.

Elberoth · Jun 12, 2013

Lee said:
A consensus emerged among my friends who went to Newport that the MSB Analog DAC stole the show. Two trustworthy friends believe it was better than the dcs gear.

Difficult to judge the performance of a single component in show conditions.

That beeing said - the Analog DAC is one of the better DACs available in sub-$10k range.

john925 · Jun 15, 2013

Anybody compared Elgar Plus playing dff with MSB Analog?

Lee · Jun 17, 2013

Elberoth said:
Difficult to judge the performance of a single component in show conditions.

That beeing said - the Analog DAC is one of the better DACs available in sub-$10k range.

I think the whole "show conditions" concept is overblown and a little misleading. Many of the mfrs at RMAF have had the same room for many years. If you can't figure it after a while then there are other issues.

Elberoth · Jun 18, 2013

Difficult to judge the performance of a single component in show conditions.

Lee · Jul 7, 2013

Elberoth said:
Difficult to judge the performance of a single component in show conditions.

True to a degree but I find digital sources are easier to be evaluated as I can hear soundstage and resolution fairly easy in many cases.

Barry2013 · Apr 16, 2018

On Friday a mint Scarlatti dac replaced the Paganini dac in my system and now partners my Scarlatti Transport and clock. At the same time six Infinity Entreq cables went into the system so my impressions are the result of both upgrades.
The Entreq thread has my post on the cables based on my Magnum Dynalab 109 FM tuner.
I am absolutely delighted with the changes and the improvements in sound quality are substantial. The sound on CDs/SACDS is so analogue in character, SACD in particular, that all the criticisms of digital sound cease to be an issue. I am not claiming that it matches a high end vinyl set up but it is remarkably good in comparison.
It obviously is not up to Vivaldi standards but a three box Scarlatti is still a really good listen and in high end terms IMHO a first class buy.

analog brother · Apr 16, 2018

i have heard the vivaldi mk1 and i thought that was a little clinical sounding, and would present headaches with complicated logistics as an ownership proposition
with 4 separate components requiring racks/footers/cables....

the rossini was very musical though. not too much of a compromise and a much more realistic proposition.
the other one in the same price range is the esoteric k1.

jfrech · Apr 17, 2018

Barry2013 said:
On Friday a mint Scarlatti dac replaced the Paganini dac in my system and now partners my Scarlatti Transport and clock. At the same time six Infinity Entreq cables went into the system so my impressions are the result of both upgrades.
The Entreq thread has my post on the cables based on my Magnum Dynalab 109 FM tuner.
I am absolutely delighted with the changes and the improvements in sound quality are substantial. The sound on CDs/SACDS is so analogue in character, SACD in particular, that all the criticisms of digital sound cease to be an issue. I am not claiming that it matches a high end vinyl set up but it is remarkably good in comparison.
It obviously is not up to Vivaldi standards but a three box Scarlatti is still a really good listen and in high end terms IMHO a first class buy.

Congratulations, Scarlatti is very very good. Are you using the firewire mode off the transport or dual AES? I found the latter to be a pretty nice improvement...when I had my Scarlatti stack...

Are the "cheaper" dCS models the best digital

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