What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

RogerD

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I heard a M2 Vaughan. Sounds very good, not as good as the best analog gear but anyhow.

Now my Question: What is the benefit of a DAC lets say for over 20k? The last 5% or less or just the name?

I am using a Windows 8 with Foobar and Jplay (please do not start any discussion). I do not think that JRiver 19 is better.

Josef

In Germany it is impossible to get one of the big DACs for testing

I have used the Monarchy Audio NM24 for 4 years now. I did change the coupling caps though. Mr Poon the designer has finally come out with a 24/96 version. At a list price of 1500 for a combo SS/Tube/DAC I might have to give it a listen. I would not spend big money on a DAC,just because the technology change is on going.
 

microstrip

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There is very little benefit according to John Atkinson in the new issue of Stereophile in which he
reviews the Marantz NA-11S1 file player/streamer/DAC. It costs $3500. He said it was so close to the $45,000 MSB Diamond stack
as to be disturbing to think about the $41,500 difference. He said it was "too close for comfort", even though in the end
the MSB had a few percentage points of better imaging.

The Stereophile magazine is now available to online subscribers. I could go briefly through the NA11S1 review and, considering the whole review, I find this comment more a negative view on MSB performance in his particular system than a hype on the NA11-S. Specially when we read his enthusiastic endorsement of the DSD performance at the end of the review - quoting John Atkinson:

BTW, Mep, I know you are smiling ... ;)
 

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mep

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The Stereophile magazine is now available to online subscribers. I could go briefly through the NA11S1 review and, considering the whole review, I find this comment more a negative view on MSB performance in his particular system than a hype on the NA11-S. Specially when we read his enthusiastic endorsement of the DSD performance at the end of the review - quoting John Atkinson:

BTW, Mep, I know you are smiling ... ;)

You are correct Fransisco. I did smile when I read the original review by JA.
 

asiufy

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It's a shame it doesn't support AIFF, as that's a deal breaker for me. Otherwise I'd gladly give it a go, and sell the MSB if they're really that close. Maybe with a future firmware update...


alexandre
 

mep

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It's a shame it doesn't support AIFF, as that's a deal breaker for me. Otherwise I'd gladly give it a go, and sell the MSB if they're really that close. Maybe with a future firmware update...


alexandre


How about the latest ARC CD/DAC that won't play SACDs and doesn't accept DSD files and it sells for $12K?
 

microstrip

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How about the latest ARC CD/DAC that won't play SACDs and doesn't accept DSD files and it sells for $12K?

Unless you are a hardcore audiophile and/or are a member of WBF the lack of DSD or SACD will not affect you seriously. :)

As many others I still do not find a number of recordings in pure DSD enough to make the system attractive for me. The best DSD recordings that I have listened to were needle drops - it was nice to appease my audiophile curiosity, and still make me curious about the whys of the performance of the format, but it did not affect my classic and jazz music lover side. But I would not mind listening to this Mahler 1rst while comparing the Vivald DSD , the Marantz and your Mytek . ;)
 

Andre Marc

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The Stereophile magazine is now available to online subscribers. I could go briefly through the NA11S1 review and, considering the whole review, I find this comment more a negative view on MSB performance in his particular system than a hype on the NA11-S. Specially when we read his enthusiastic endorsement of the DSD performance at the end of the review - quoting John Atkinson:

BTW, Mep, I know you are smiling ... ;)

Surely you have to be kidding to consider the review as a whole to be anything but a rave.
 

Andre Marc

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It's a shame it doesn't support AIFF, as that's a deal breaker for me. Otherwise I'd gladly give it a go, and sell the MSB if they're really that close. Maybe with a future firmware update...


alexandre

FYI, it does support AIFF via Network if I understand correctly. It will not play AIFF via thumb drive, but it may via powered hard drive.
 

Andre Marc

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Unless you are a hardcore audiophile and/or are a member of WBF the lack of DSD or SACD will not affect you seriously. :)

As many others I still do not find a number of recordings in pure DSD enough to make the system attractive for me. The best DSD recordings that I have listened to were needle drops - it was nice to appease my audiophile curiosity, and still make me curious about the whys of the performance of the format, but it did not affect my classic and jazz music lover side. But I would not mind listening to this Mahler 1rst while comparing the Vivald DSD , the Marantz and your Mytek . ;)

ARC, like a few other companies, is not banking on DSD being make or break. I personally would never build a system around DSD playback. 99% of my library is PCM and it is always going to be that way considering I own 6 TB of music.

I think DSD is spectacular, don't get be wrong, but it is in the end an esoteric format that could have been mainstream if Sony did not
screw it up.:eek:
 

asiufy

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FYI, it does support AIFF via Network if I understand correctly. It will not play AIFF via thumb drive, but it may via powered hard drive.

No, doesn't support AIFF at all.


alexandre
 

microstrip

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It's a shame it doesn't support AIFF, as that's a deal breaker for me. Otherwise I'd gladly give it a go, and sell the MSB if they're really that close.(...)

alexandre

As far as I could read, there is not material enough in this review to support or even consider such decision. Surely, YMMV.
 

microstrip

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Surely you have to be kidding to consider the review as a whole to be anything but a rave.

Although I was not addressing the whole review, I can see now that our definitions of a rave review differ a lot. For me, a little more than half a page on sonics, after several boring pages filled with technical details can never be a rave review. If it was not for the MSB provocation I would ignore it. See the Audio Research CD9 versus Krell Cypher by Fred Kaplan in the same Stereophile issue - for me this is a rave review. It is very interesting that at some point FK addresses the similitude of the top digital systems he is using, one tube, the other SS, but with much more detail, giving examples and also addressing later in detail the differences.

I hope no one takes offense on my comments - opinions on reviews are sometimes like sound preferences - it seems we sometimes also disagree on them ;)
 

Mike Lavigne

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Unless you are a hardcore audiophile and/or are a member of WBF the lack of DSD or SACD will not affect you seriously. :)

As many others I still do not find a number of recordings in pure DSD enough to make the system attractive for me. The best DSD recordings that I have listened to were needle drops - it was nice to appease my audiophile curiosity, and still make me curious about the whys of the performance of the format, but it did not affect my classic and jazz music lover side. But I would not mind listening to this Mahler 1rst while comparing the Vivald DSD , the Marantz and your Mytek . ;)

I have almost 5 terabytes of dsd files, and likely listen to classical on dsd about 1/3rd of the time that I listen. many native dsd masters, many more ripped from SACD's, the rest tape sourced. most of my needle drops are actually double dsd. I have many hundreds of jazz dsd files, also spread between native masters, ripped SACD's and tape sourced.

and there are more coming on line all the time. many of these are 'golden age' classical and jazz.

the performance level of most of these files is really amazing.

i'll agree there are a few of my Lps where needle drops might be desirable. but i'd say that tape sourced dsd files overall are better than needle drops unless it's 2xdsd......and there are many many out there.
 

Andre Marc

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Although I was not addressing the whole review, I can see now that our definitions of a rave review differ a lot. For me, a little more than half a page on sonics, after several boring pages filled with technical details can never be a rave review. If it was not for the MSB provocation I would ignore it. See the Audio Research CD9 versus Krell Cypher by Fred Kaplan in the same Stereophile issue - for me this is a rave review. It is very interesting that at some point FK addresses the similitude of the top digital systems he is using, one tube, the other SS, but with much more detail, giving examples and also addressing later in detail the differences.

I hope no one takes offense on my comments - opinions on reviews are sometimes like sound preferences - it seems we sometimes also disagree on them ;)

No offense taken at all. I enjoy others perspectives. The only thing I can't tolerate on forums is mis-stated facts. No issues here!

BTW, you hit on an interesting point. I often find Atkinson's reviews's rather indecisive, and full of techno babble, but he means well. He is
an old audio geek, and it shows. ;) But he does a fine job at Sphile.

His YG Sonja review was rather frustrating as well, filled with a few contradicting statements and too much techno speak.

Back to Marantz, giant killer or not, they make, to me, beautiful sounding gear at embarrassing to the competition prices.:D
 

microstrip

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I have almost 5 terabytes of dsd files, and likely listen to classical on dsd about 1/3rd of the time that I listen. many native dsd masters, many more ripped from SACD's, the rest tape sourced. most of my needle drops are actually double dsd. I have many hundreds of jazz dsd files, also spread between native masters, ripped SACD's and tape sourced.

and there are more coming on line all the time. many of these are 'golden age' classical and jazz.

the performance level of most of these files is really amazing.

i'll agree there are a few of my Lps where needle drops might be desirable. but i'd say that tape sourced dsd files overall are better than needle drops unless it's 2xdsd......and there are many many out there.

Mike,

You are not a typical audiophile. ;) You have access to many recordings that are not accessible to me or most others. If I had access to all these DSD files probably I would have a different opinion.

IMHO, availability and open access to trusty information is a key point in DSD and HiREZ music - I can not afford to hire a detective every time I consider such type of recordings.
 

flez007

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Going back to the original post, I am not in a hurry to upgrade from my Oppo/Nuforec transport + Mytek DAC - just heard two very good DACs from Accuphase and Zanden that (of course) sounded better...at a cost!
 

Empirical Audio

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These are my findings, after having modded about 20 different DAC's for 10 years, attending shows for 15 years and now selling my own DAC for a few years:

Above about $10K, most of them sound very good. There are some giant-killers out there, even at this price range though. Going to $20K or $50K will not necessarily get you better SQ IMO. More features like MQA, DSD, network access, and prettier chassis/displays, maybe. Features and aesthetics are nice, but I prefer the SQ to lots of features. Just my take.

Achieving great SQ is mostly a matter of implementation in the DAC, not so much the parts selection. PC board design, power supply design, power delivery design (decoupling, wiring, regulation etc,..) and the simplicity of the signal path are all critical. Choosing op-amps over discrete transistor design can be beneficial, however there are some really good op-amps out there that sound amazing as long as you don't use too many and feed them properly. I do stay away from really old D/A chips however because they tend not to reproduce the HF transients very accurately. One critical thing to consider when buying an expensive DAC is how are they doing the digital filtering. Aside from jitter, digital filters are the bain of good SQ.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

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