Trinity DAC

microstrip

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microstrip

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The word 'vintage' is a relative term. The PCM1704 is still in production. (...) As for the sound ... lets just say for now, that the DAC sounds phenomenal. I haven't heard anything quite like it. It is a game changing product for me. I'm using this DAC via the USB input, mostly with 44.1kHz redbook files played from my computer. I don't have many 176/192 kHz files, so I cannot comment how it works in a true NOS (non-oversampling) mode. Probably even better.

Adam,

Going through your very welcome descriptions and a few documents at the Trinity site I think I am not too wrong stating that the most characteristic aspect of the Trinity is being an 2.822MHz oversampling DAC implemented with 24 bits R2R DACs, using a staggered technique to overcome the speed limitation of the DACs. One question seems obvious to me - why doing the oversampling in two phases and not carrying it in a single phase, writing the values directly to the DACs at proper timing?
 

Elberoth

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Elberoth

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Adam,

Going through your very welcome descriptions and a few documents at the Trinity site I think I am not too wrong stating that the most characteristic aspect of the Trinity is being an 2.822MHz oversampling DAC implemented with 24 bits R2R DACs, using a staggered technique to overcome the speed limitation of the DACs. One question seems obvious to me - why doing the oversampling in two phases and not carrying it in a single phase, writing the values directly to the DACs at proper timing?

'Because the PCM-1704 DACs are not fast enough. They top at 768kHz (48kHz input, oversampled 16x) . This is why Trinity had to design a work-around, that would give you (more or less) an equivalent of 64x oversampling and 2.822MHz sampling rate.
 

microstrip

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'Because the PCM-1704 DACs are not fast enough. They top at 768kHz (48kHz input, oversampled 16x) . This is why Trinity had to design a work-around, that would give you (more or less) an equivalent of 64x oversampling and 2.822MHz sampling rate.

Surely. But I can not see why the "work around" could be done in the oversampling phase - unless too much computing power would be needed for such high speed oversampling. Do you know if the Trinity DAC uses the DF1704 oversampling filter?
 
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Elberoth

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Surely. But I can not see why the "work around" could be done in the oversampling phase - unless too much computing power would be needed for such high speed oversampling. Do you know if the Trinity DAC uses the DF1704 oversampling filter?

Because as I said - the PCM-1704 DACs are not fast enough. If you take 44,1kHz file, and feed it into 64x oversampling digital filter, you will end up with a 2.822MHz datastream. That is way too fast for the PCM-1704 DAC to handle, which tops at 768kHz (48kHz x 16x). That is why Ditmar went for a work around, which creates 'virtual' 64x rate - each DAC is still getting a 705,6kHz or 768kHz datastream [depening on your starting file sampling freq - 44.1kHz or 48kHz], but the delay line creates the additional 8x oversampling equivalent.

Guys over the DIYaudio forum have once discussed building a DAC similar to Trinity (with time-staggered DACs).

In the thread Building the ultimate NOS DAC using TDA1541A (DAC):

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...lding-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-44.html

the OP in that thread posted the following explanation to what is happening inside such a dac, which in principle also describes what is happening inside the Trinity DAC:

"So the octal D-I DAC (octal D-I DAC is the name of their project - Adam.) can be compared with a single 19 bit DAC running at 352.8KHz sample rate. The higher sample frequency is obtained by adding delayed samples, resulting in frequency multiplication by 8. The linear interpolation is soly obtained by sequential adding/subtracting of DAC output currents, resulting in a higher resolution. Temporary storage of samples (memory) during generation of time delays is done in the serial shift register.

So the main advantage of the octal D-I DAC is obtaining a output signal similar to a 8X oversampling DAC (resolution and sample rate) without beeing one, as no digital interpolation filter or higher BCK clock frequency are used. This results in a excellent phase linearity over the entire audio range."


Their DAC didn't have any digital oversampling filter at all, so what they were getting was 352.8kHz virtual sample rate. Trinity DAC has an additional 8x digital oversampling filter, meaning the virtual sample rate is 352.8KHz x8 = 2.822MHz.
 

LL21

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...Guys over the DIYaudio forum have once discussed building a DAC similar to Trinity (with time-staggered DACs).

In the thread Building the ultimate NOS DAC using TDA1541A (DAC):

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...lding-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-44.html

the OP in that thread posted the following explanation to what is happening inside such a dac, which in principle also describes what is happening inside the Trinity DAC:

"So the octal D-I DAC (octal D-I DAC is the name of their project - Adam.) can be compared with a single 19 bit DAC running at 352.8KHz sample rate. The higher sample frequency is obtained by adding delayed samples, resulting in frequency multiplication by 8. The linear interpolation is soly obtained by sequential adding/subtracting of DAC output currents, resulting in a higher resolution. Temporary storage of samples (memory) during generation of time delays is done in the serial shift register.

So the main advantage of the octal D-I DAC is obtaining a output signal similar to a 8X oversampling DAC (resolution and sample rate) without beeing one, as no digital interpolation filter or higher BCK clock frequency are used. This results in a excellent phase linearity over the entire audio range."


Their DAC didn't have any digital oversampling filter at all, so what they were getting was 352.8kHz virtual sample rate. Trinity DAC has an additional 8x digital oversampling filter, meaning the virtual sample rate is 352.8KHz x8 = 2.822MHz.

Fascinating, I have always heard good things about the TDA1541A double crown...as a Zanden owner, I know I love its sound. Do you know anything about how good this one is?
 

agisthos

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Chord and Jeff Rowland have recently built their entire DAC processing within a FPGA.

I suspect quite soon, designers will be able to do what Trinity has done, with 8 R2R ladder DAC's time staggered for the upsampling, and write it all into one of the new FPGA's, which are now available with over a million transistor gates.
No need to hand match old and out of production ladder chips.

Maybe then we can see this sort of performance without paying 50k.
 

wisnon

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How comes the time staggering does not increase jitter? With the staggering of samples wouldnt recombining them introduce minute timing errors? Isnt that the definition of jitter.
 

Julf

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How comes the time staggering does not increase jitter? With the staggering of samples wouldnt recombining them introduce minute timing errors? Isnt that the definition of jitter.

A static timing offset is not considered jitter, as it doesn't modulate the signal.
 

edorr

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Maybe then we can see this sort of performance without paying 50k.

In my view, hardware manufacturers should be single mindedly focused on bringing down the pricepoint for sota PCM playback, brining these type of innovations to mainstream high-end and ultimately mass markets. Instead many appear to be spending their R&D resources on building hardware that can play back DSD, for which there is essentially no content. I guess hoping that if there is enough hype/hardware, the content will follow (it won't). Astounding.
 

microstrip

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(...) Maybe then we can see this sort of performance without paying 50k.

Although I really appreciate having the fascinating news about digital playback improvements, and we must thank those we know for long and have access to exquisite equipment to have reported their opinions, I think we still have a too limited number of reports and still too informal, to be sure that the Trinity or R2R NOS DAC's are really the target to reach.

It is known that in high-end the only proper way to go is listening after some research and preparation and I will be very happy when I can read a real review telling with detail the good and the bad. Then I will think more seriously about these matters.
 

redsquare

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I was somewhat skeptical as well but looks like Fremer is equally blown away (by the Trinity phono), although part 2 is forthcoming and the usually stoic Marshall Nack of Positive Feedback placed the preamp on top of the mountain with no rivals. I ordered the phono stage (after extensive listening) having owned an FM Acoustics unit for years - I'm actually scarred to listen to the dac, but will do so in the coming months. I have never heard a phono stage more profound than Trinity and I can only imagine what the dac is capable of. Btw, Trinity is a new old company - I remember GTE Trinity from Germany about 7-8 years ago but seem to recall it being even more expensive then.
 

microstrip

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I was somewhat skeptical as well but looks like Fremer is equally blown away (by the Trinity phono), although part 2 is forthcoming and the usually stoic Marshall Nack of Positive Feedback placed the preamp on top of the mountain with no rivals. I ordered the phono stage (after extensive listening) having owned an FM Acoustics unit for years - I'm actually scarred to listen to the dac, but will do so in the coming months. I have never heard a phono stage more profound than Trinity and I can only imagine what the dac is capable of. Btw, Trinity is a new old company - I remember GTE Trinity from Germany about 7-8 years ago but seem to recall it being even more expensive then.

Phono stages and DACs are completely different types of equipment - IMHO we can not extrapolate from one to the other.
As far as I know Fremer was blown by the DCS Vivaldi - perhaps he will someday compare it with the Trinity DAC.
 

Audiocrack

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Although I really appreciate having the fascinating news about digital playback improvements, and we must thank those we know for long and have access to exquisite equipment to have reported their opinions, I think we still have a too limited number of reports and still too informal, to be sure that the Trinity or R2R NOS DAC's are really the target to reach.

It is known that in high-end the only proper way to go is listening after some research and preparation and I will be very happy when I can read a real review telling with detail the good and the bad. Then I will think more seriously about these matters.

As I wrote before, the Trinity dac was tested by Audio Technique and directly compared (and very favourably) to the Dcs Vivaldi. The reviewer was so impressed that he bought the Trinity dac as several Vivaldi owners have done in the Hong Kong area. This review is right now being translated in English. On the web you can find some comments of Robert Harley of TAS several years back on the former dac of Dietmar: he was clearly impressed by what he heard. I am not mentioning this because I want to persuade you or anybody else to buy any of Dietmar's products. I am just sharing my experiences in order to convince people that listening to the Trinity dac might be very interesting. You might even be as impressed as I am and quite some other audiophiles are. And one final remark: I heard a lot of audio components. Very few of them have impressed me as the Trinity dac does.
 
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adyc

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As I wrote before, the Trinity dac was tested by Audio Technique and directly compared (and very favourably) to the Dcs Vivaldi. The reviewer was so impressed that he bought the Trinity dac as several Vivaldi owners have done in the Hong Kong area. This review is right now being translated in English. On the web you can find some comments of Robert Harley of TAS several years back on the former dac of Dietmar: he was clearly impressed by what he heard. I am not mentioning this because I want to persuade you or anybody else to buy any of Dietmar's products. I am just sharing my experiences in order to convince people that listening to the Trinity dac might be very interesting. You might even be as impressed as I am and quite some other audiophiles are. And one final remark: I heard a lot of audio components. Very few of them have impressed me as the Trinity dac does.

Can you please elaborate whether you are the Trinity Hong Kong dealer or the actual user? I know that people attend the Audio Technique session do not share the same enthusiasm as you. They feel that these two dacs have different presentation. Every new super expensive dac coming out would be trumpeted as the best dac. dCS, Light Harmonic, MSB and now Trinity. I suspect next month, we will discuss another super expensive dac as the best dac from other manufactuer. Furthermore, the editors of HK audio magazine got a big big discount on buying equipments from dealers. I would take a pinch of salt of this dac just by judging the editor bought this DAC after review it. This editor would not certainly lose money by selling to second hand market.
 

Audiocrack

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Can you please elaborate whether you are the Trinity Hong Kong dealer or the actual user? I know that people attend the Audio Technique session do not share the same enthusiasm as you. They feel that these two dacs have different presentation. Every new super expensive dac coming out would be trumpeted as the best dac. dCS, Light Harmonic, MSB and now Trinity. I suspect next month, we will discuss another super expensive dac as the best dac from other manufactuer. Furthermore, the editors of HK audio magazine got a big big discount on buying equipments from dealers. I would take a pinch of salt of this dac just by judging the editor bought this DAC after review it. This editor would not certainly lose money by selling to second hand market.

First of all I did not trumpet the way you suggest as I never use such stupid remarks. The best in the world does not exist because everybody listens differently. Secondly I reacted to a former post with reference to a review that microstrip wished. Thirdly, I am not a dealer and I live in Europe. I never spoke to anybody of Audio Exotics, let alone do any business with them. Lastly, I do not want to react to your suggestions regarding the review in Audio Technique as I find these suggestions - to put it mildly - way out of line.
 

Elberoth

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Furthermore, the editors of HK audio magazine got a big big discount on buying equipments from dealers.

That is probably true. But it think about it for a while, you will come to the conclusion, that when someone can get a discount on every gear he buys, the discount itself, stops beeing a factor.
 

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