Trinity DAC

microstrip

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Hi Microstrip,

And the R2R too.
Most of the best DACs in the market are of R2R type: Trinity, MSB, Totaldac, Da Vinci, CH Precision ...etc

Yes, the BurrBrown PCM1704's (now 15 years old, should we call them digital vintage ;)) are R2R types. It is something that puzzles me - how is it possible to get 24 bit 768 KHz with such excellent measured performance from a R2R switching DAC using current sources?
 

Audiocrack

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Thanks much Lloyd. Heard today red book cd played in a complete Trinity system, that is cd-transport, dac, preamp and power amps on Martin Logan loudspeakers. Apart from the Pass aleph amps I have never liked solid state amps as they -in my humble opinion - never made music , in particular compared to good tube amps like Kondo and Zanden. This time I really liked what I heard although the Martin logan speakers are much smaller than my own speakers. Hopefully I will be able to install the trinity transport in my system the next week so I can hear my red book cd's through the Trinity cd-combo in my own system.
 
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LL21

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Thanks much Lloyd. Heard today red book cd played in a complete Trinity system, that is cd-transport, dac, preamp and power amps on Martin Logan loudspeakers. Apart from the Pass aleph amps I have never liked solid state amps as they -in my hummel opinion - never made music , in particular compared to good tube amps like Kondo and Zanden can do. This time I really liked what I heard although the Martin logan speakers are much smaller than my own speakers. Hopefully I will be able to install the trinity transport in my system the next week so I can hear my red book cd's through the Trinity cd-combo in my own system.

Congrats on your new purchase! A fully Trinity digital set!!! Amazing. I have been communicating with Elberoth earlier today about how much he loves his Trinity DAC. FWIW, I think he has found that it does respond to different power cables.

Very much look forward to hearing about your shoot-out!!

(On a separate note, there was a post here earlier about Genesis IIs and how the owner found benefit from using Ultra 5s underneath all 4 towers...thought I would pass that along to you, given our discussions in the past about them.)
 

microstrip

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Thanks much Lloyd. Heard today red book cd played in a complete Trinity system, that is cd-transport, dac, preamp and power amps on Martin Logan loudspeakers. Apart from the Pass aleph amps I have never liked solid state amps as they -in my hummel opinion - never made music , in particular compared to good tube amps like Kondo and Zanden can do. This time I really liked what I heard although the Martin logan speakers are much smaller than my own speakers. Hopefully I will be able to install the trinity transport in my system the next week so I can hear my red book cd's through the Trinity cd-combo in my own system.

Can I ask what was the model of the Martin Logan's and what are your speakers?
 

LL21

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Can I ask what was the model of the Martin Logan's and what are your speakers?

I am pleased to say I am one of the fortunate ones who has heard Audiocrack's system...he has the mighty Genesis 1.1s...fully custom modd'd by working with a former colleague of Arnie Nudell. Mindblowing. It made my beloved Wilson X1s/Velodyne DD18 feel like Sashas...
 

Elberoth

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I just wanted to confirm that I bough the Trinity DAC after 6 week home audition (not that I needed that mch time - I knew that the DAC is special after the first 30s, but my dealer let me keep it that long, so why not; when he finally asked for the DAC back, I took my checkbook).

I will post some more detailed impressions when I have a chance to sit back in front of some proper keyboard - not the iPad.
 

LL21

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I just wanted to confirm that I bough the Trinity DAC after 6 week home audition (not that I needed that mch time - I knew that the DAC is special after the first 30s, but my dealer let me keep it that long, so why not; when he finally asked for the DAC back, I took my checkbook).

I will post some more detailed impressions when I have a chance to sit back in front of some proper keyboard - not the iPad.

Elberoth comes STRONG!! Mahalo MSB...Congrats!
 

CKKeung

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Thanks much Lloyd. Heard today red book cd played in a complete Trinity system, that is cd-transport, dac, preamp and power amps on Martin Logan loudspeakers. Apart from the Pass aleph amps I have never liked solid state amps as they -in my hummel opinion - never made music , in particular compared to good tube amps like Kondo and Zanden can do. This time I really liked what I heard although the Martin logan speakers are much smaller than my own speakers. Hopefully I will be able to install the trinity transport in my system the next week so I can hear my red book cd's through the Trinity cd-combo in my own system.

Hi Audiocrack,

A big big congratulation!

Please post some photos of the Trinity combo, particularly the transport to share with all forum members.
Many thanks in advance!

CK
 

Audiocrack

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I am not very familiar with the Martin Logan line of speakers but I believe they were the sl3 loudspeakers. I am going to use the Trinity transport and dac with my Tidal T1 Sunray loudspeakers and Zanden amplification.
 

Audiocrack

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Thanks much Lloyd. I am using the Tara Labs Cobalt pc on the Trinity dac and happy with the results.
 

LL21

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Thanks much Lloyd. I am using the Tara Labs Cobalt pc on the Trinity dac and happy with the results.

Look forward to hearing all about the new Trinity set! Fantastic news!
 

spiritofmusic

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Audiocrack, like Lloyd, I've decided to stick with rbcd ie physical media, and not go down the road of hi rez/downloads. How do you think the Trinity transport/dac will fit into this use? Btw, transport and power amps not officially listed anywhere, can you fill in any details on these components? Regards.
 

Jazzhead

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+1 , committed to RBCD for now , so eager to know details regarding the transport . Congrats on a seemingly fine acquisition .
 

microstrip

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I am not very familiar with the Martin Logan line of speakers but I believe they were the sl3 loudspeakers. I am going to use the Trinity transport and dac with my Tidal T1 Sunray loudspeakers and Zanden amplification.

Thanks Audiocrack - it will be an impressive system . I am really looking for your opinions. It is disturbing to learn about one more very expense DAC that seems to change the established values of CD red book.
 

spiritofmusic

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I was just about to bite the bullet on rbcd as a medium, seemingly never to get past a certain sterility in presentation wrt analog, and go down the road of downloads, when I acquired a s/h Emm labs CDSA, which I then upgraded to SE, and then X upgrade status. Now I started to really enjoy my digital, and in some respects ended up preferring it to analog (somewhat redressed by my recent analog upgrades). And strangely, in a total 180 degrees, I now find I prefer rbcd to a lot of hi rez - the 24/96 and beyond demos I've heard have a sort of other worldly spaciousness that sounds totally unlike music in the real world, a sort of lack of groundedness - almost as if the desire to emulate the space in analog has been taken to artificially enhanced levels. And i can't get past the psychological comfort in handling physical media, yes even the lowly, unsexy cd.
SOOO, I am very interested in hearing how Trinity deal with the transport side of things, if it's as good as their DAC seems to be...
 

Audiocrack

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Audiocrack, like Lloyd, I've decided to stick with rbcd ie physical media, and not go down the road of hi rez/downloads. How do you think the Trinity transport/dac will fit into this use? Btw, transport and power amps not officially listed anywhere, can you fill in any details on these components? Regards.

You can find some info about the Trinity transport on the audioexotics website. The Trinity poweramps I listened to are his older models. This morning I said goodbuy to Dietmar and he informed that he is building right now his new class a poweramps that will be larger and three times higher than the preamp and phono. Dietmar claims that the new poweramps will sound better than the ones I listened to the last couple of days. Right now I cannot comment on specs (not available to me yet) nor the sound quality as the first pair will be built the next week or so.
 
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Elberoth

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It is interesting to see that also analog products from Dietmar seem to gather positive reviews (the preamp review in positive feedback). Most of the companies that make state of the art digital seem to leave the analog gear to others, and vice versa. MSB with their series of amps (exquisite, BTW) is one of the few notable exceptions.

Analog and digital seem to be very narrow fields of expertise nowadays. Most, if not all of the magic of the Trinity DAC is happening on the digital side.
 

spiritofmusic

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Audiocrack, from your discussions with Dietmar, is there anything you can say about the transport? There is v.little info, even on Audio Exotics. The DAC seems to be getting phenomenal ratings, do you believe the transport is deserving of the same? Bear in mind as I've said that downloads/hi rez is not where I'm at, but a SOTA transport/dac to play physical cds interests me.
 

Audiocrack

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Audiocrack, from your discussions with Dietmar, is there anything you can say about the transport? There is v.little info, even on Audio Exotics. The DAC seems to be getting phenomenal ratings, do you believe the transport is deserving of the same? Bear in mind as I've said that downloads/hi rez is not where I'm at, but a SOTA transport/dac to play physical cds interests me.

I have asked Dietmar to supply me with some info on the transport. If he is willing to do so, I will post it on this thread.
 

Elberoth

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Yes, the BurrBrown PCM1704's (now 15 years old, should we call them digital vintage ;)) are R2R types. It is something that puzzles me - how is it possible to get 24 bit 768 KHz with such excellent measured performance from a R2R switching DAC using current sources?

The word 'vintage' is a relative term. The PCM1704 is still in production. They have been eclipsed specs wise by the PCM1792 DACs, but many manufacturers still prefer it to the newer, low bit DACs and continuue to use them. Not many people realise, that even the top of the range PCM1792 is already a 10 years old design ...

Such an excellent measured performance from 1704 is possible thanks to the special time-staggered arrangement they are used in. The DACs are not run in parallel, as in most designs (with inputs and outputs interconnected), but run via a special delay line, where each DAC is fed with a slightly delayed signal. This creates additional interpolation points which are situated linearly between the original sampling points.

According to the manual, the whole thing in the TRINITY DAC behaves like a quadratic series. Therefore, it means that two D/A converters are needed for 2 ? way analog oversampling, 4 for 4 ? way oversampling, 8 for 8 ? way oversampling, etc. The Trinity DAC uses 8 DACs per channel (16 DACs in total), meaning used arrangement gives an effective oversampling rate of 8x.

Since the Trinity DAC still uses the digital filter, the result is an increase in the effective oversampling rate from 8x to 64x (8x in the digital filter, multiplied by eight by the time-staggered DAC technique).

I know of no other DAC that would use 64x oversampling, as that would require and extremely fast DAC, able to run at 2.8224MHz (PCM1704 tops at 768kHz) and massive computing power. Krell, beeing a Krell, once did it in their Reference 64 DAC using some brute force computing with 4 FPGAs and countless EPROMs. They ended up with a DAC that was huge, required equaly huge and heat generating PSU to power all those FPGAs and eventually didn't live up to its promise, mainly due to the limitations of the DACs used (they had to settle on the only DAC of the era that was fast enough to operate at 64x sampling frequency, or 2.8224MHz - Burr-Brown PCM64; it was an 18-bit device that needed manual MSB trimming and had a fairly high level of glitch in its output, which in turn needed an extra de-glitch circuit in the signal path ...)

Wadia used to do something similar to what Trinity is doing in their 27 DAC - they had used 16x oversampling digital filter and four time-staggered DACs in parallel to get to a 64x rate (this is where I'm not sure how Trinity got their patent granted; most likely Wadia's and Trinity's solutions differ slightly).

MSB has 32x digital filter in their latest Platinium IV series of DACs, so does Chord, but that's it.

Such a high oversampling rate allows the Trinity to work without the anlog filter. This is unique among tha DAC designs I'm familiar with. For years the analog reconstruction filter was (and still is) a real headache for any DAC designer, since it always introduces distortions. (The problem is not dissimilar to the passive crossover in the speaker. Many people reported huge gains in transparency by getting rid of a passive crossover and going active. This is also one of the reasons why crossoverless speakers sound so immediate and real.)

But that is not all. For frequencies 176kHz and above, the DAC works not only without the analog filter, but also without the digital one ! It basicly makes it a NOS (non oversampling) DAC, but without all the problems of NOS DACs and their unfiltered outputs !

But it is only one of the many technical features that make the DAC so special. The next one is DAC selection.

Trinity buys the 1704 DACs from Burr-Brown (TI now) in the highest grade available (K), but it is not good enugh for them. They run a further, in house selection to pick up the best of the best. Not many people realise, that the Texas Instruments specifies the 1704 'K' THD as 0,0008% (typical) and 0,0015% (max). That also means, that among the DACs you will find the very few that are 0,0004% THD.

Trinity buys those DACs in spools of 2000pcs, then measure each and every DAC on a special test jig they designed that allows the DACs to be tested without soldering, and hand picks those that exhibit the lowest THD of the lot. So it is like making your own 'Double Crown' DAC selection (in Philips speak), only in house. (The question remains what they do with the remaining DACs; I doubt they throw them away - most likely they return those to the TI or sell them to other manufacturers).

That strict DAC selection is one of the reasons, the Trinity DAC is so expensive. It is also a major bottleneck for their manufacturing capacity. Dietmar told me that they are olny able to manufacture 3-4 DAC per MONTH. So unless they invest heavily into the selection part of their business, those DACs will always be available in a limited supply.

The third technical reason the Trinity is a superior DAC is the attention they paid to the clocking. They use two fully customized, hermetic sealed Voltage Controlled Oven Controlled Xrystal Oscillators (VCOCXO), which deliver the 2 master clocks of 44.1kHz*512= 22.579200.0MHz and 48kHz*512= 24.576000.0MHz. They claim that the accuracy of those clocks is 1000x (!) higher than the clocks used by dCS (1ppb or 0.02Hz).

And even though it is debatable if accuracy of the clock has any relation to sound quality in audio (what is important is clock stability), the phase noise figures must also be extremely low, as they quote jitter levels at just 28 fs (that is femtoseconds, or 0,028 picoseconds !) in 10Hz-10kHz range. That is absolute state of the art teritory.

The forth and reason the DAC performs so well is a well implemented the USB input (with galvanic isolation). The USB interface allows the data to be clocked from a local, free running, ultra low phase noise clock and use its full potential. DACs that use outboard clocks arrangement (dCS, Esoteric) still have to send the fragile clock signal through the loom of cables, and then through a PLL loop inside the DAC - each of those steps adding a certain levels of jitter. I'm not even mentioning DACs that cannot sync to the transport and have to rely on a clock signal recovered from the SPDIF signal, as that is way too oldschool to be even discussed in the realm of state of the art DACs...

Trinity Solution is similar to what MSB does (ultra low phase noise in close proximity to the DAC chipsets) and is most correct from the technical point of view. And it shows.

As for the sound ... lets just say for now, that the DAC sounds phenomenal. I haven't heard anything quite like it. It is a game changing product for me. I'm using this DAC via the USB input, mostly with 44.1kHz redbook files played from my computer. I don't have many 176/192 kHz files, so I cannot comment how it works in a true NOS (non-oversampling) mode. Probably even better.
 

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