Trinity DAC

TRINITY

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Sep 12, 2013
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www.trinity-ed.de
GTE GmbH

Does the DAC discussed in this thread has any relation to the GTE Trinity DAC ?

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/trinity_tech_e.html

We have outsourced the audio business of the GTE in 2012 into the TRINITY electronic design GmbH.
The GTE works further in the sensor business, which we have established 1994 and I am still designing the parts for the GTE, which is guided by my brother.
That means the new DAC is the condign successor of the TRINITY DAC in the triangle shape, which is still as a photo on our webpage, with the note: No longer in production.
Dietmar
 

Elberoth

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How many 1704 DACs does the Trinity DAC use ?
 

TRINITY

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Pcm1704

How many 1704 DACs does the Trinity DAC use ?

The TRINITY DAC uses 8 hand selected PCM1704 in the highest grade per channel, on a special 4 layer PCB with 6 etreme low noise voltage regulators.
Means 16 PCM1704 in total. The architecture can be scalled we can easily design a DAC with 16 or 32 DAC ICs, if customers can afford this.
Please give me favour and read the Manual it is full of Information and also explain how many ICs are used.

Dietmar
 

asiufy

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Elberoth

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Any similarity to what Accuphase is doing ?

 

TRINITY

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Technique

Any similarity to what Accuphase is doing ?


Elberoth,
I know this page and it is related only to the DSD data stream and not to the PCM. In general it is similar what we as the GTE have patented in Patent US 6,359,577, DE19809882A1, EP1062730A1, EP1062730B1, WO1999045651A1. The question is, if our patent, which more or less describes PCM signals also covers the DSD application. I have written dozen of patents, but I am not a lawyer.

Dietmar
 

Julf

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I know this page and it is related only to the DSD data stream and not to the PCM. In general it is similar what we as the GTE have patented in Patent US 6,359,577, DE19809882A1, EP1062730A1, EP1062730B1, WO1999045651A1. The question is, if our patent, which more or less describes PCM signals also covers the DSD application. I have written dozen of patents, but I am not a lawyer.

But you use a similar arrangement, with a hardware low-pass/reconstruction filter formed out of a delay line driving separate DACs?
 

TRINITY

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Pcm

But you use a similar arrangement, with a hardware low-pass/reconstruction filter formed out of a delay line driving separate DACs?

I use real multi-bit PCM data converters and not ICs dedicated for DSD. The TRINITY DAC has no active Filter behind the DAC ICs and your description is wrong. You cannot built a low pass filter with digital delay lines. At least I do not know a way right now. It seems you have problems to understand the over-sampling technique and what happens during this process. Actually I have believed my description in the Manual is easy to understand. Unfortunately I cannot describe in in other words, sorry I am a bad teacher.
Dietmar
 

Julf

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Dietmar,

I am somewhat surprised that you are responding to my genuine curiosity and attempts to understand the uniqueness of your design by what I feel is a somewhat hostile and dismissive tone.

Are clarifying questions not acceptable to you?

The TRINITY DAC has no active Filter behind the DAC ICs and your description is wrong.

I think you mean "has no *analog* filter behind the DAC ICs" (as your DACs form a filter chain in themselves)?

My reference was to the description of the Accuphase design that Elberoth posted. I didn't describe your design in any way, I asked if your design was similar to what I understand the Accuphase design to be.

You cannot built a low pass filter with digital delay lines. At least I do not know a way right now.

I can't? How come any standard textbook description of a finite impulse response filter is the one made out of a bunch of independent delay/amplification stages summed together like this:

500px-FIR_Filter_General.svg.jpg

It seems you have problems to understand the over-sampling technique and what happens during this process.
Actually I have believed my description in the Manual is easy to understand.

Unfortunately the special thing that makes "LIANOTEC" different from traditional "multiple DACs in parallel" designs seems to happen in a stage that is only described as "the inputs are supplied with the required data by an additional control circuit", basically translating into "magic happens".
 

TRINITY

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www.trinity-ed.de
Dietmar,

I am somewhat surprised that you are responding to my genuine curiosity and attempts to understand the uniqueness of your design by what I feel is a somewhat hostile and dismissive tone.

Are clarifying questions not acceptable to you?



I think you mean "has no *analog* filter behind the DAC ICs" (as your DACs form a filter chain in themselves)?

My reference was to the description of the Accuphase design that Elberoth posted. I didn't describe your design in any way, I asked if your design was similar to what I understand the Accuphase design to be.



I can't? How come any standard textbook description of a finite impulse response filter is the one made out of a bunch of independent delay/amplification stages summed together like this:

View attachment 11682




Unfortunately the special thing that makes "LIANOTEC" different from traditional "multiple DACs in parallel" designs seems to happen in a stage that is only described as "the inputs are supplied with the required data by an additional control circuit", basically translating into "magic happens".


Hi all
Real sorry, if you think I wanted to affront you or anybody else in this forum, definitely not.
Maybe my English is not good enough to catch the correct meaning of your questions and to find an answer which is not offending, but I cannot describe the technique with other words than I have done in the manual. Honestly everything is said in the manual with all the simulation results and comments.
As I promised you I will try to answer all of your questions, but honestly, if I should or have to go in details you have to have an engineering degree to understand what I did.
I understand that you are very interested in digital audio and obviously you have read a lot of technical articles about this, but now it seems for me you mix too many things. I have no idea where I should start to correct you without affront you, since I do not know what knowledge level you have.
I think it is better if I leave the forum and again sorry for my offending answer, it was not on purpose.
Dietmar
 

Julf

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Dietmar,

Maybe my English is not good enough to catch the correct meaning of your questions and to find an answer which is not offending, but I cannot describe the technique with other words than I have done in the manual. Honestly everything is said in the manual with all the simulation results and comments.

I can totally relate to the language issue - English is my third language, and I now live in a country where they speak my fifth language.

Yes, there are simulation and measurement results in the manual, but no explanation (beyond the "magic box") of the actual principle of feeding your DACs.

honestly, if I should or have to go in details you have to have an engineering degree to understand what I did.

Well, then you don't need to worry. Feel free to go to whatever level of technical detail you feel necessary.

I have no idea where I should start to correct you without affront you, since I do not know what knowledge level you have.

How about assuming a university-level background in electrical engineering, digital processing and computer science?
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi all
Real sorry, if you think I wanted to affront you or anybody else in this forum, definitely not.
Maybe my English is not good enough to catch the correct meaning of your questions and to find an answer which is not offending, but I cannot describe the technique with other words than I have done in the manual. Honestly everything is said in the manual with all the simulation results and comments.
As I promised you I will try to answer all of your questions, but honestly, if I should or have to go in details you have to have an engineering degree to understand what I did.
I understand that you are very interested in digital audio and obviously you have read a lot of technical articles about this, but now it seems for me you mix too many things. I have no idea where I should start to correct you without affront you, since I do not know what knowledge level you have.
I think it is better if I leave the forum and again sorry for my offending answer, it was not on purpose.
Dietmar

On my side no affront or offense taken .. Don't worry and as far as Engineering not a problem for many on this forum, including I.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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I talked to Dietmar extensively the last couple of days. Apart from the fact that he is a true gentleman he impressed me more than enough to make the jump: I ordered a Trinity dac. Will post my experiences with the Trinity dac on WBF but patience is needed as it will take approximately two month before the Trinity dac will be delivered to me. For those who are interested in specs, please take a look at Dietmar's website. The Trinity dac specs look very impressive to me although I must confess that I am not a technician. And as I wrote before in my post regarding the Tripoint Audio Troy signature in the end only one thing matters to me: how does a unit sound (in my system). Although the proof of the pudding is in the eating I have high hopes that Dietmar created something very special with his Trinity dac.

I just can't wait. ...Me too I have high hopes and renewed confidence from reading the specs, and your post.

Btw, Trinity is a swell name for a DAC.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
The TRINITY DAC uses 8 hand selected PCM1704 in the highest grade per channel, on a special 4 layer PCB with 6 etreme low noise voltage regulators.
Means 16 PCM1704 in total. The architecture can be scalled we can easily design a DAC with 16 or 32 DAC ICs, if customers can afford this.
Please give me favour and read the Manual it is full of Information and also explain how many ICs are used.

Dietmar

So sixteen (16) Burr-Brown PCM-1704K DACs total, in a quad differential balanced mode? ...Is that a 24/96 DAC?
The manual contains all the detailed specs Dietmar?
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
24,305
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435
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Hi all
Real sorry, if you think I wanted to affront you or anybody else in this forum, definitely not.
Maybe my English is not good enough to catch the correct meaning of your questions and to find an answer which is not offending, but I cannot describe the technique with other words than I have done in the manual. Honestly everything is said in the manual with all the simulation results and comments.
As I promised you I will try to answer all of your questions, but honestly, if I should or have to go in details you have to have an engineering degree to understand what I did.
I understand that you are very interested in digital audio and obviously you have read a lot of technical articles about this, but now it seems for me you mix too many things. I have no idea where I should start to correct you without affront you, since I do not know what knowledge level you have.
I think it is better if I leave the forum and again sorry for my offending answer, it was not on purpose.
Dietmar

I'm now at lost! ...Could it be my French heritage? No it isn't; I thought that smart members are here to learn, and I've seen no "affront" whatsoever.

Btw, your English is perfect.
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Dietmar,

Please exercise some patience and stay to provide more information. We do have many well-educated members and industry professionals here, and your input is appreciated. While it may be beyond the scope of what you wished to share, please try to give some more information to our interested "customer base".

Lee
 

Audiocrack

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2012
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I'm now at lost! ...Could it be my French heritage? No it isn't; I thought that smart members are here to learn, and I've seen no "affront" whatsoever.

Btw, your English is perfect.

Totally agree with Northstar: we should as WBF members be happy that a gifted engineer as Dietmar - who is extremely busy running his business - is willing to join our forum. How many audio brands are actually doing this? And I suppose everybody understands that some ideas/secrets/concepts cannot be disclosed. So I (also) would appreciate a little more understanding and respect from our members. And lastly, as non native speaker I can testify that it is not an easy to express all kind of nuances in a different language.
 

Julf

New Member
Nov 27, 2011
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Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Totally agree with Northstar: we should as WBF members be happy that a gifted engineer as Dietmar - who is extremely busy running his business - is willing to join our forum. How many audio brands are actually doing this? And I suppose everybody understands that some ideas/secrets/concepts cannot be disclosed. So I (also) would appreciate a little more understanding and respect from our members. And lastly, as non native speaker I can testify that it is not an easy to express all kind of nuances in a different language.

If some ideas/secrets/concepts cannot be disclosed, that's definitely OK. "I can't answer your question, because I don't know if you are educated enough" less so.
I, for one, am trying to show understanding and respect (in language 3 of 5), I think all my questions are respectful and factual, and can be answered with simple factual answers.
 

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