Trinity DAC

Julf · Dec 28, 2013

wisnon said:
Elaborate please, and dumb it down a bit too.

I'll try. Jitter is a periodic *variation* in the timing - just like wow & flutter on a vinyl LP. The variation in timing causes modulation components (the jitter spectrum we can measure). A fixed staggering doesn't vary with time - it just causes a slight, steady delay. In a way, the modulating frequency is 0, so there are no intermodulation results.

Elberoth · Dec 28, 2013

agisthos said:
I suspect quite soon, designers will be able to do what Trinity has done, with 8 R2R ladder DAC's time staggered for the upsampling, and write it all into one of the new FPGA's, which are now available with over a million transistor gates.
No need to hand match old and out of production ladder chips.

Maybe then we can see this sort of performance without paying 50k.

I'm believe you are wrong.

There are different types of semiconductors - some are pure analog (Opamps), some are digital (logic gates, FPGA and so on) and some are mixed types (D/A and A/D converters for example).

FPGA stands for Field Programmable Gate Array and consist of “logic gates”. Pure digital, means the gate counts are the counts of logic cells. You can implement pull up and down resistors for termination of inputs and outputs, but not high accurate ones. The resistors you can implement in a digital IC are noisy and have a high drift.

This is the reason, why the AK4113 SPDIF Receiver for example, needs to have a 15kOhm resistor (which sets the reference current for the VCO inside the IC for the PLL) outside of the chip - the one you could build in inside, would not be accurate enough. Same for the R2R DACs.

To build an R2R DAC on a chip, you need an “analog semiconductor process” BiCMOS (Bipolar-CMOS) with NiCr resistors inside, which need to be laser trimmed. The logic is done in CMOS and the analog part is Bipolar.

agisthos · Dec 28, 2013

edorr said:
In my view, hardware manufacturers should be single mindedly focused on bringing down the pricepoint for sota PCM playback, brining these type of innovations to mainstream high-end and ultimately mass markets. Instead many appear to be spending their R&D resources on building hardware that can play back DSD, for which there is essentially no content. I guess hoping that if there is enough hype/hardware, the content will follow (it won't). Astounding.

I totally agree with this statement. The thing that got me interested in the Trinity DAC and TotalDAC products in the first place was the user reports of PCM 44.1 sounding as good or better than some DSD material (and both are R2R designs...). Lets face it all the good content is on PCM and we want SOTA DAC's for this format.

With DSD we are mostly going to see the labels re-release their SACD back catalog over the coming years, or for new content it will be audiophile jazz and orchestral works. I do not see the point in obsessing over DSD DAC's like people are currently.

agisthos · Dec 28, 2013

Elberoth said:
Sounds tempting, but I'm afraid that what you are sugesting is simply not possible.

Chord UK have been making DAC's for a few years now, that not only do all the DAC functions that a Sabre or Wolfsen used to do, but also handle clock re-timing, buffering, spdif/AES input receiving and USB input processing, all programmed within Xilinx FPGA chips. All these functions used to be handled by proprietary off the shelf chips with limited customization ability.

Chord's current series of products was limited by the FPGA's being only hundreds of thousands of transistor gates in size, so for example they would split the USB input functions off into a separate chip from the other functions. But now these chips are starting to become cost effective and available in much larger sizes, which means the only limit is going to be software/programing ability. Its an infant field for DAC manufacturers at this time.

georgemg · Dec 28, 2013

Although I really appreciate having the fascinating news about digital playback improvements, and we must thank those we know for long and have access to exquisite equipment to have reported their opinions, I think we still have a too limited number of reports and still too informal, to be sure that the Trinity or R2R NOS DAC's are really the target to reach.

It is known that in high-end the only proper way to go is listening after some research and preparation and I will be very happy when I can read a real review telling with detail the good and the bad. Then I will think more seriously about these matters.

What makes me impressed is how the prices are towards the stratosphere, trinity DAC reminds me FM acoustics, and when I see the pictures of the internal parts... I agree with Microstrip is still early to certainties, the audio exotics tests many and very expensive devices, and they discuss their experiences and it is good when we can not listen these equipments, but once spoke highly of organic Argent cables, and I bought it, and it was not what I expected, but I tested it on at least five differents setups, taking into account a lost of synergy, but in all setups the experience was not good, prudence at this level of price is necessary.

LL21 · Dec 28, 2013

adyc said:
Can you please elaborate whether you are the Trinity Hong Kong dealer or the actual user? I know that people attend the Audio Technique session do not share the same enthusiasm as you. They feel that these two dacs have different presentation. Every new super expensive dac coming out would be trumpeted as the best dac. dCS, Light Harmonic, MSB and now Trinity. I suspect next month, we will discuss another super expensive dac as the best dac from other manufactuer. Furthermore, the editors of HK audio magazine got a big big discount on buying equipments from dealers. I would take a pinch of salt of this dac just by judging the editor bought this DAC after review it. This editor would not certainly lose money by selling to second hand market.

Hi. i can see you are trying to decipher hype from reality from personal opinion. We all must do this on forums. If it helps, i can confirm i know Audiocrack, and he is no dealer in HK that is for sure. He is a serious audiophile whose system makes OTT systems that sometimes we see in high end stores look positiviles mid-fi. The sound he generates took my breath away, and that is in comparison with systems at Goodwins, Extreme in Turkey, Audio Exotics in HK, as well as systems in Spain, NYC, London and a few other major audio dealers. I do travel a fair amount and have been fortunate to hear some good audio dealers and personal home systems. I remember thinking my X1s at home felt like Sashas in comparison.

Of course, you dont know me either, but hopefully if you even cared to, you could read my posts and calibrate that i try to call it like i see it but always with respect. Audiocrack is one discerning audiophile...as judged by his sytem imho. He also has other equipment besides the one system, and thus comands a wealth of experience in audio i always enjoy tapping for advice. My instincts were always to pay attention to the Trinity based on the comments about GTE (Dietmars former company?) but it was good (in my book) to hear Audiocrack's views as an owner.

now i just gotta find a way to hear it for myself!

Elberoth · Dec 28, 2013

agisthos said:
Chord UK have been making DAC's for a few years now, that not only do all the DAC functions that a Sabre or Wolfsen used to do, but also handle clock re-timing, buffering, spdif/AES input receiving and USB input processing, all programmed within Xilinx FPGA chips. All these functions used to be handled by proprietary off the shelf chips with limited customization ability.

Chord's current series of products was limited by the FPGA's being only hundreds of thousands of transistor gates in size, so for example they would split the USB input functions off into a separate chip from the other functions. But now these chips are starting to become cost effective and available in much larger sizes, which means the only limit is going to be software/programing ability. Its an infant field for DAC manufacturers at this time.

I know Chord wery well. I even happen to have the Chord QuteHD DAC in my bedroom system (excellent DAC, BTW). Those DACs have been designed by Robert Watts, whom I also happen to know and spoken to on many ociasions. I belive his first design that used FPGAs was the SX64 DAC. It was made by dpa (now defunct). I still have the internal shot of my old SX64:

As you can see, the only off-the-shelf chips he used were opamps and the PDM100 HDCD digital filter. That was back in 1995.

If you would like to do some more reading on Sigma-Delta DACs on a FPGA - here is a nice paper:

http://www.ee.usyd.edu.au/people/philip.leong/UserFiles/File/papers/dac_fpt03.pdf

However, what we are discussing here, are the R2R ladder DACs, not Sigma-Delta DACs ! Hope you understand the design difference between the two by now.

That is exactly why I said that your statement about R2R ladder DACs on FPGAs is incorrect.

BTW, your earlier statement:

agisthos said:
Chord and Jeff Rowland have recently built their entire DAC processing within a FPGA.

is also partially incorrect. Jeff uses an FPGA to store his digital filter, and still relies on a standard 'DAC on a chip' for digital to analog conversion, standard input receiver and USB receiver. Here is the internal shot of his AERIS DAC:

- the chip in the top left corner is a DAC. Here is a closeup:

Manufacturers like Theta and Wadia have been using custom digital filters stored on various FPGAs and DSPs for the past 20 years. So there in nothing really innovative about that DAC.

agisthos · Dec 28, 2013

Elberoth, very interesting, so FPGA gates do not have the ability to mimic a resistor. Oh well that throws out the programmable R2R idea...

Elberoth · Dec 29, 2013

Guys, I'm listening right now to a CD rip of La Spagna by Gregorio Paniagua on BIS records (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-163) and the separation between the instruments, depth of soundstage, the rendition of instruments as a real, palpable 3D objects in space, the smoothnes, the lack of digital glare and grain are just out-of-this-world good. Spooky real is probably a better word to describe what I'm hearing. I have never heard this CD sounding so real before !

microstrip · Dec 29, 2013

Elberoth said:
Guys, I'm listening right now to a CD rip of La Spagna by Gregorio Paniagua on BIS records (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-163) and the separation between the instruments, depth of soundstage, the rendition of instruments as a real, palpable 3D objects in space, the smoothnes, the lack of digital glare and grain are just out-of-this-world good. Spooky real is probably a better word to describe what I'm hearing. I have never heard this CD sounding so real before !

It is a great recording, but you should also listen to La Folia by Gregorio Paniagua. Go to track 4, around 4'30. How many bumble bees do you notice? Do you fell them moving clearly? Does the Range Rover go around an S like track when it disappears away and comes back in track 12?

MylesBAstor · Dec 29, 2013

microstrip said:
It is a great recording, but you should also listen to La Folia by Gregorio Paniagua. Go to track 4, around 4'30. How many bumble bees do you notice? Do you fell them moving clearly? Does the Range Rover go around an S like track when it disappears away and comes back in track 12?

Better yet can you hear the horn on the RR honk about 5secs or so before it returns? Also, the better the system's resolution, the more birds you hear as the RR fades into the distance. 'Course depends upon whether you're listening to the ATR or original. Neither is right, neither is wrong, but both are very different sounding. Lately have leaned to the ATR reissue.

I was never a big fan of the BIS recording; way too thin and bright and often wondered why it was on HP's list. (In fact, had just pulled the BIS out a couple of months ago and back it went.)

OTOH, you can't miss with any of the Paniaguas on HM. Villancicos is great as is Taruntulle-Tarantelle.

microstrip · Dec 29, 2013

MylesBAstor said:
Better yet can you hear the horn on the RR honk about 5secs or so before it returns? Also, the better the system's resolution, the more birds you hear as the RR fades into the distance. 'Course depends upon whether you're listening to the ATR or original. Neither is right, neither is wrong, but both are very different sounding. Lately have leaned to the ATR reissue.

I was never a big fan of the BIS recording; way too thin and bright and often wondered why it was on HP's list. (In fact, had just pulled the BIS out a couple of months ago and back it went.)

OTOH, you can't miss with any of the Paniaguas on HM. Villancicos is great as is Taruntulle-Tarantelle.

Myles,
Yes, in my system it is a double honk, perfectly separated - just checked

You are right about the Taruntelle-Tarantelle. It is one of my recordings where I miss the Aida's clean and extended treble.

RBFC · Dec 29, 2013

microstrip said:
Myles,
Yes, in my system it is a double honk, perfectly separated - just checked
You are right about the Taruntelle-Tarantelle. It is one of my recordings where I miss the Aida's clean and extended treble.

The section with the bells playing the melody has long been a favorite.

Lee

Audiocrack · Dec 30, 2013

For those who are interested: there will be another shoot out between Dcs Vivaldi cd-player and the Trinity dac. Hopefully they will use the usb connection as the Trinity dac needs this to perform at it's best. As far as I know the Trinity transport has not yet been shipped to Hong Kong so I am the only private user so far. See for the coming shoot out the Audio Exotics website.

Elberoth · Dec 30, 2013

Did the Editor of Audiotechnique even used the USB input writing his review ? Anyone read the review in chineese ?

Audiocrack · Dec 30, 2013

Elberoth said:
Did the Editor of Audiotechnique even used the USB input writing his review ? Anyone read the review in chineese ?

I do not know Adam but Dietmar probably does. I have not seen the review yet.

Jazzhead · Dec 30, 2013

Audiocrack said:
For those who are interested: there will be another shoot out between Dcs Vivaldi cd-player and the Trinity dac. Hopefully they will use the usb connection as the Trinity dac needs this to perform at it's best. As far as I know the Trinity transport has not yet been shipped to Hong Kong so I am the only private user so far. See for the coming shoot out the Audio Exotics website.

Another Shoot-out will be conducted in Kuala-Lumpur after the Chinese New-Year , the suggested line up : dCS Vivaldi , Vitus Masterpiece , CH Precision , Trinity , MSB . Look forward to their findings with interest

Audiocrack · Dec 30, 2013

Jazzhead said:
Another Shoot-out will be conducted in Kuala-Lumpur after the Chinese New-Year , the suggested line up : dCS Vivaldi , Vitus Masterpiece , CH Precision , Trinity , MSB . Look forward to their findings with interest

Thanks Jazzhead. Do you know who will organize this shootout?

Jazzhead · Dec 30, 2013

Audiocrack said:
Thanks Jazzhead. Do you know who will organize this shootout?

You are welcome . An audiophile club called Analogue Fellowship .

spiritofmusic · Dec 30, 2013

I believe the Trinity DAC is c.Euros45k. Any idea what the transport will retail for?

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