Mike, glad to learn you appear to be joining the ranks of those that have come around to the view (which I have been advocating for a while) that with the right hardware, all this fretting over formats is just splitting hairs, and musically satisfactory sound reproduction can be achieved with any format including 44/16. Not suggesting CD will ever be as good as master tape, but it is good enough to produce enjoyable music without worrying about resolution limitations, allowing us to focus our attention on content.....
Trinity DAC
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Mike, glad to learn you appear to be joining the ranks of those that have come around to the view (which I have been advocating for a while) that with the right hardware, all this fretting over formats is just splitting hairs, and musically satisfactory sound reproduction can be achieved with any format including 44/16. Not suggesting CD will ever be as good as master tape, but it is good enough to produce enjoyable music without worrying about resolution limitations, allowing us to focus our attention on content.....
Glad to hear that you like to listen to CDs again, Mike. Since I have the Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC which, unlike yours is not SOTA but very good nonetheless, I have gained confidence that there is and must be so much more musical info on a CD than we have given it credit for all those decades. I had never thought the resolution was even possible that I hear from my Berkeley DAC which, again, is not even the best.
On a theoretical level, I have also regained confidence in the Nyquist theorem (double sampling rate over frequency), which lead to the 44.1 kHz sampling rate (the current recommendation of the Audio Engineering Society is 48 kHz for professional digital recording, see also my post in the Science of Audio Forum, a far cry from audiophile views that sampling rates of 176.4 or 192 kHz are needed). It's just that we could never extract the info from the CD medium which is so much, and apparently too much for the vast majority of playback gear, on the edge regarding theoretical limits of transparency. This makes proper practical implementation so hard.
In any case, I have always been a CD-only guy because that medium is where almost all the music is that interests me. So I am particularly glad to hear that all the musical treasures on that medium are not greatly corrupted forever.
On a theoretical level, I have also regained confidence in the Nyquist theorem (double sampling rate over frequency), which lead to the 44.1 kHz sampling rate (the current recommendation of the Audio Engineering Society is 48 kHz for professional digital recording, see also my post in the Science of Audio Forum, a far cry from audiophile views that sampling rates of 176.4 or 192 kHz are needed). It's just that we could never extract the info from the CD medium which is so much, and apparently too much for the vast majority of playback gear, on the edge regarding theoretical limits of transparency. This makes proper practical implementation so hard.
In any case, I have always been a CD-only guy because that medium is where almost all the music is that interests me. So I am particularly glad to hear that all the musical treasures on that medium are not greatly corrupted forever.
Now if only EERA made a DAC.....
Perhaps the Tentation is as good as it is because it was built to do just one thing right. Play CDs. The common comment of everybody that's heard it is "who needs hi-rez?" the most eloquent comment I remember tagged higher formats as superfluous. Well greedy, sucker for envelope pushing me, I do. If I were a single medium listener and that medium happened to be CD, I'd be where I'm at CD wise as I am analog wise now with the Air Force One. As someone who also happens to be a dealer and needs to be present in the Hi-res space, that's where the Da Vinci Dual and CH C1 come in. Tonally the Light Harmonic is of the same cloth as the EERA, warm, big, kick ass bold. The C1 the emphasis on clarity. I'm happy to be able to use both anytime I like.
I've not heard a single bad thing said about the Trinity. I certainly don't believe there's some strange twilight zone conspiracy to hype it. That kind of word of mouth doesn't appear from a vacuum. I'd love to hear one someday.
Bottom line is that in the last few years, digital has gotten really, really darned good. Solid State as a whole too.
Perhaps the Tentation is as good as it is because it was built to do just one thing right. Play CDs. The common comment of everybody that's heard it is "who needs hi-rez?" the most eloquent comment I remember tagged higher formats as superfluous. Well greedy, sucker for envelope pushing me, I do. If I were a single medium listener and that medium happened to be CD, I'd be where I'm at CD wise as I am analog wise now with the Air Force One. As someone who also happens to be a dealer and needs to be present in the Hi-res space, that's where the Da Vinci Dual and CH C1 come in. Tonally the Light Harmonic is of the same cloth as the EERA, warm, big, kick ass bold. The C1 the emphasis on clarity. I'm happy to be able to use both anytime I like.
I've not heard a single bad thing said about the Trinity. I certainly don't believe there's some strange twilight zone conspiracy to hype it. That kind of word of mouth doesn't appear from a vacuum. I'd love to hear one someday.
Bottom line is that in the last few years, digital has gotten really, really darned good. Solid State as a whole too.
I hear you, but I think ACrack is familiar with the Zanden Transport and Dac.
When I auditioned the Tune Audio Anima in Paris, that dealer had the Eera for CDs, and when he streamed downloads through his Lumin, he had modded the Eera so that the Lumin went through the internal Eera Dac to the preamp
Still love my Zanden combo that I am using for playing my silver discs in the Tidal LA set up. Not the best in transparency and dynamics but it (still) sounds so humane. It is no coincidence that all reviewers love(d) it.
Mike Congrats!!! You always seem to be at the forefront in this hobby. So here's the $64K question (or what ever the Trinity costs): what does the Trinity do that you have not been able to get from other PCM DACS?
Also, did you buy blind or did you get to hear it somewhere in the USA? Is there a new US distributor?
Hey Jack,
Wonderful to see you post again. (In case you didn't know, your posts are very enlightening.) Does the CH Precision DAC have the same sonic signature as the other CH Precision components, or do they all have a different sonic signatures that come synergistically together in a system?
Amen!!! If you like the music, vinyl, digitized high res vinyl, PCM digital, and DSD digital are all fabulous.
Yes...Mike, Congrats are in order!!! have read nothing but superlatives about Trinity! And yes, when the right equipment comes along, it really does make itself (ironically) secondary...because the music takes first place.
Thanks Caesar. It's hard to say especially regarding the amps which have three operational modes and a slew of settings that you can use to tailor their interaction with your loudspeakers. DIY synergy. Anywhere from warm and cozy to ear bleedingly astringent. I'd say the amps play the bigger part of the overall sound. I still haven't gotten the full potential from the DI/C1 combo since I'm still waiting on a BNC clock cable. I'm not one for flowery words but suffice it to say, picky as I am, I can and have listened for many hours straight quite enjoyingly. Same goes for the USB input when entertaining and just having plain jane AAC files playing in the background. Still trying to decide how I'll do UPNP. Honestly the turntable keeps on looking at me sucking away digital motivation. I don't want to derail the thread so I'll leave the CH talk at that.
One thing about the EERA being modified before moving on back to Trinity, I'm not sure if that was actually the case. New Tentations and Autographes are offered with a SPDIF input option that can handle up to 24/192. To be completely honest, I never got around to it because of 1, the buggy way to access it by a combination of button pushes like I was doing a cheat hack on a 80's Nintendo console and 2) For the life of me I could never find my Halide Bridge. I might just have given it away when I sold my Accuphase and got the Da Vinci Dual. Didier says the input is a concession so I read that as not a full blown, balls to the wall, implementation. He doesn't speak any english so maybe something was lost in translation. I still hopes he decides to make a stand alone DAC.
Hi Audiocrack,
Seems the Zanden 4-box continues to be Marc Michelson's favorite CD combo system. From The Audio Beat Letters today:
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/letters.htm
"Zanden 5000S "still a good option"?
September 4, 2015
Marc,
I have a Zanden Model 6000 integrated amplifier with Raidho D1 speakers and would kindly ask you for advice regarding a DAC. Do you believe the Zanden Model 5000S is still a good option (I know it has no USB input and that I need converter)? Is it better than or at least competitive with DACs like the new Zanden Model 500 or the Nagra HD or perhaps Auralic Vega (I know the last one is not in the same league but with great price/quality ratio)? As a source, I have a Mac mini with a Musical Fidelity Vlink2 DAC and perhaps somewhere in the future I will change the source for an Aurender N10 or Auralic Aries, which both have AES/EBU output. Yes, I also have HD music files.
Darko Hrastnik
I still think very highly of the Zanden 5000S DAC -- it remains part of my favorite CD playback combo. However, you hint at the issues with it in today's audio climate: no USB input, so you will need an input/output converter like the Halide Design USB Bridge, and no playback of high-resolution files, because it handles only CD resolution. If you plan to use it in that capacity -- for playing CDs and ripped CDs -- then you'll have a superior DAC in my opinion. However, if you want to use it for playing high-resolution PCM or DSD files, you'll need to look elsewhere. In this case, my first choice would the the Ayre QB-9 DSD, although the Zanden 500 would be interesting too. I just haven't heard it, so I don't know how close it comes to the mighty 5000S. -Marc Mickelson"
sorry i'm late in responding to this. been a very busy week on a number of levels.
the height of the performance bar is different for everyone. and honestly; previous PCM experiences were such that while I liked it fine enough, it did not grab me, and so it was 'meh', I could take it or leave it. dsd was that much better to my ears.
if the music or recording was strong enough I filtered out the PCM artifacts and got into the music. but the end result of my feeling toward PCM was that I simply stopped pursuing it as a format 10 years ago. I pretty much ignored my 3000+ CD collection for the last 10 years.
the format as typically played back has not changed in my viewpoint; what has changed is that the Trinity dac has overcome the distracting artifacts of PCM listening, and more than that, has moved PCM equal or maybe better than dsd to me ears when the recording is well done and native PCM.
how many dacs can do that?
I don't know.
in any case; don't interpret my changed viewpoint/opinion as evidence that the digital landscape has changed....whatever view you might have.
this is simply my opinion and YMMV.
Al,
again; sorry for the delay in my response. busy, busy.
I can't say about the Berkeley, but I am now a big time believer in 44.1/16-Redbook as a completely worthy format in every way. but I would add that it takes some great engineering and likely high $$$'s to be able to enjoy that.
if you read this description about how the Trinity adds analog points to the upsampling and the value of it's very expensive clocks....
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12023-Trinity-DAC&p=238265&viewfull=1#post238265
and this post about how the Trinity differs from conventional dacs....
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12023-Trinity-DAC&p=244005&viewfull=1#post244005
I think that you begin to appreciate what it takes to take PCM beyond it's weak aspects. it can be done but the efforts are considerable.
i'm going to guess that the Berkeley has it's own tricks to overcome these same challenges.
enjoy!
Caesar,
sorry for the delay.....
and thank you.
first off; my exposure to other PCM dacs is somewhat limited to audio shows. when I go I do pay attention and spend time in many rooms with PCM only. I find myself listening 'around' the PCM to the other gear. this is even with some of the mega buck dac systems like the big dCs or Esoteric or others. it's always seemed like the PCM signature is always lurking between me and the music.
I have not heard the MSB V Diamond (or Select) with the top level clock, or the top level dCs with their best clock....and i'm sure that there are other very very good PCM dacs. I have heard the Audio Note non-upsampling dacs.
so I have no idea really if there are any other dacs out there that are in this league.
what I hear from the Trinity dac is (1) an absence of any sort of digital artifact, (2) space, space, space. depth, width, height. no flat soundstages. (3) body and dimensionality (4) cohesive musical gestalt and delicate nuance, and (5) cohesion on peaks. the normal attributes of redbook, the normal harsh dynamic snap and crispness of detail (that some of us love).....is still there but has been transformed into lifelike energy that no longer sticks up but now compliments. it fits into the picture and does not gouge your eyes out or make your shoulders tense. I don't cringe on peaks.....anymore. instead there is authority and ease. ahhhhhh. and refinement. and this is with redbook. higher rez PCM is better still.
I would guess that other highest level PCM decks do most/all of this too. do they do it as well?
Hong Kong/China is in love with redbook. and their deep pocket audiophiles step up to the plate to go after the very very best of redbook players. so there are plenty of guys there that have the access to the highest level PCM dacs. among them it seems the Trinity has kicked ass. so while I can't claim any personal head to head experience to make any claims; I've read plenty of them.
OTOH I do have excellent dsd playback and lots of that software, as well as my top level vinyl and tape as my reference. the Trinity is right there with the very best digital and comes as close to the analog as any I have heard.
and I will add that I am building a new server (CAPS v4 Pipeline with some 'Elberoth' hotrod parts) that will push this to higher performance, and it will also push the dsd higher too.
I did buy it blind. but I did a lot of research first from various sources. I was motivated by all the music on my shelves and knew that this was where there was progress happening and I just needed to find the right product. the more I read about Dietmar's approach and the various feedback sources the more it pointed to the Trinity. and as I listen every day i'm more and more convinced.
at this time there is no US or North American distributor. you have to go factory direct. my unit is warranted directly thru the factory in Germany. it is a small operation and at this point 100% of his output is already sold in the markets he is servicing.
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yes. i'm not saying it is better. but it could be. I am also on the hunt for 'better' dsd than my Playback Designs. so right now the situation is fluid.
and the character of PCM redbook (through the Trinity) is slightly different than that of dsd. dsd is slightly more laid back in energy. PCM redbook is more vivid (cleaner, clearer) and detailed. I've only had the Trinity for 10 days and I've mostly listened to that. and recently I have made huge progress in my room acoustics. so there are a few variables i'm dealing with.
but no doubt that Trinity redbook looks dsd right in the eye!!!!
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