Tripoint troy signature grounding device

I'm still batting for Entreq, on price alone if no other reason. in the UK the Troy SE w/4 standard grounding leads is £11.5k. My Entreq Silver Tellus w/5 Apollo leads is £3.5k, so already a massive price difference. I believe the standard Troy ground leads are of fairly basic quality, and the pressure is always to upgrade to SE leads, at ...£4k each, and then there are the Thor ground leads at £8k each. Top of the line Entreq Atlantis box and Atlantis ground cables would set me back £4.5k, so SOTA set up Entreq £8k altogether. Going full out w/Troy equates to £31.5k-£50k. Add on a Troy Thor PC at £6k...and the price insanity continues.
So for all those comparing the two, get real w/the price comparisons. I think you'll find Troy is not competitive v Entreq.

Lloyd Ll21 on these boards here has heard both. I believe he felt it was a close decision, w/Troy having THE EDGE on points, the Entreq still doing some things better. It is nigh on impossible to do a-b comparisons. I've heard Troy in another system and it's effects on being taken out of that system replicated the effects of taking Entreq out of mine. I believe choice poss comes down to taste, Troy revealing more body, Entreq more speed. Just feel at the stratospheric prices Miguel charges for Troy, and the greater modularity of Entreq, our community ought to be more aware that there is a substantive alternative to Troy, at a quarter of the price (in the UK).
I gather there is soon to be announced US distribution for Entreq

As this thread is about the Troy, I have kept my comments to the Troy only.
I have heard some of the Entreq gear, directly after the Troy.
My comments about the Entreq gear will be posted in that thread.

Audiocrack said:

In my opinion Miguel is a true music lover and audiophile who passionately believes in what he is doing.

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+1 He's kool like that ....

Audiocrack said:

BTW, the picing info regarding Troy you just presented is incorrect.
The correct prices are:
10.1k euros Troy Signature
15.5k euros Troy Signature Thor power cable upgraded unit.
4k euros Thor Special Edition ground cable 1 meter
325 euros for additional Signature Silver ground cables.

I feel some strange hostility towards Tripoint/Miguel in all your posts on this thread that I do not understand. In my opinion Miguel is a true music lover and audiophile who passionately believes in what he is doing. I strongly believe he is on the right track and I am very impressed with what the Troy is doing in my systems, systems that I thought were pretty much tweaked out. I was dead wrong and adding theTroy made a significant difference.

Lastly, the fact that Lloyd after serious audition of the Entreq system opted for the Troy SE means something, don't you think?

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I don't read into Spirit of Music's comments any hostility strange or otherwise to the Troy. He is giving his considered opinion and it is up to the readers to form their own judgement. They can agree or disagree and imputing ulterior motives to a member's opinion is uncalled for. I do not know what the UK prices are for the Tripoint and cables, but it is certainly the case that the European and UK prices are not always the same on the published international exchange rates. I have found in a number of cases that US gear is more expensive in the UK than in Europe so euro prices are not always an accurate guide to UK prices,
I am very happy with my Entreq gear and have no reason to doubt Lloyd's judgement on the respective merits of the two systems, but we all have to take into account costs and benefits to a greater or lesser extent and for many that tips the balance in favour of Entreq.

Thanks Barry. As I'm sure you'll back me up on, we both loved the effects of Troy in a fellow WBF guy's system, esp. noticing the deleterious effects of removing it from the system. And we both agreed this experience was commensurate w/removing Entreq from our systems. We, together w/the owner of the system all agreed that the effects of troy outstripped the effects of the koda K10 in the system.
So, there is no anti Troy agenda here, just a reflection of pricing in a pretty limited field. The UK prices thru the sole distributor of Troy SE is c£11k (Entreq Silver Tellus/Atlantis add on box is £4k), Thor SE ground cables are £4k each (Entreq Atlantis ground cables are £900 each), Thor Sig PC another £5k, and to go all out, Tripoint Orion £35k (Entreq Powerus/Cleanus/2 x Atlantis ground leads, plus Westwick 8kVA balanced power transformer £11k).
Please show me where I'm anti Troy. The only issue i have is pricing, but then again I criticise plenty of other stuff out there re big ticket entry eg Vertere Ref tonearm, Kharma Ultimate Veyron spkrs etc.

No problem Audiocrack, it's your thread. If you don't feel price points are worth discussing in a market situation that's fine. Not all of us agree. Very few of us can afford Troy pricing. Hell, not many more can afford Entreq. Just please don't accuse me of incorrect info re pricing. It's very simple - direct comparisons in the UK: Troy SE is £10.5k v Entreq Silver Tellus/Atlantis £4k. Troy Thor SE ground leads £4k v Entreq Atlantis ground leads £900 (I know of a person who has a Troy SE and feels Atlantis ground leads are on a par w/Troy Thor SE ground leads). Troy Thor PC £6k v Entreq Powerus/Cleanus/2 extra Atlantis ground leads £5.5k. So someone feels happy w/Atlantis leads over Thor SE ones, and another feels the Entreq Cleanus/Tellus to treat the mains was close to the Troy SE he tried a week earlier for a fifth of the price. In my system a SOTA configured Entreq will set me back the not inconsiderable sum of £15k, the same configuration in Troy SE/Thor would be £35k.
Maybe you don't mind this, but I'm sure others would be interested. Signing off now, keep enjoying Troy grounding as us w/Entreq are also doing.

zztop7 said:

We need some Super Technical people to jump in; I am lost.

Your house ground is connected to everything: refrigerator, microwave, hair dryer, tv's, chargers, etc., etc. So a >>> Part <<< of the miscellaneous electrical noises of these devices flows through all the grounds. Therefore your audio system is at the mercy of this noise.

IMHO, if you want to isolate your system, you ground it ONLY through dedicated grounds [true proper grounding that would pass a heavy duty inspection] for your audio system ONLY.

I find it interesting that the Tripoint might be using the house ground.
zz

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whart said:

I was under the impression that these external grounding systems did more- that they addressed inter-component grounding issues that went beyond simply having a good electrical connection/dedicated lines, etc.
That's why I was curious to know what they would add to a system like Mike L's, which already benefits from separate electrical feed, isolation transformer, balanced power, etc.
The simple experiments I did, with separate subpanel/dedicated lines, helped address some noise problems i had with super high efficiency horns (which made the noise level of the electronics very noticeable), but I can't say it was jaw dropping. Then again I wasn't using anything fancy for external grounding.
Some one with more technical expertise might be able to explain why the grounding set-ups in each separate component interact with each other in ways that are detrimental.

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To address the immediately above comment, the answer has something to do with a thing called 'ground loops'.

Just a FWIW: some have mentioned on this thread something about 'star grounding'. None of the systems described in this thread employ star grounding, just so you know.

There is a reason why the various grounding systems mentioned work in some systems to a great degree and yet do nothing in others. It has to do with how the equipment in use is grounded. The audio industry over the last 40 years or more really hasn't got a handle on how to ground electronics. The result is that some are grounded directly to chassis (old school) and others only use the chassis for shielding and have a separate ground for the audio circuit; still others seem to be a mix of the two. FWIW a lot of video systems tend to be old school, which is not good from a noise perspective.

As consumers we really don't get to find out much about how individual components are grounded so its a bit of a potpourri. But I can tell you this, which I think we see in this thread- if the electronics get grounded properly they do seem to get quieter with a blacker background against which more detail is revealed. I have witnessed this first hand.

Here is the nasty bit- if your electronics are designed properly with respect to grounding, further grounding is not going to do a whole lot for you. This may account for why some systems appear to be unaffected while in others it seems to be revelation. The question really is, what is proper grounding? That is the question that high end audio has not got a good answer for after half a century of trying. I could go into it but since this is a thread about a specific product it would seem to be a derailment. OTOH, the comments I read about star grounding really rankled and I felt at the very least that should be addressed. Carry on...

Personally, I am not a fad of wading into potentially contentious disagreements regarding a hobby I enjoy because it relaxes me. We have witnessed the folly of disagreements that get out of hand (which had to be 'cleansed' by the Administrators) not 24 hours ago. 'Nuff said.

On the basis that we are all just looking for personal experiences, I summarize my own. I have been fortunate to try the Entreq Silver Tellus, Atlantis and 'regular' Apollo cables and Atlantis cables. I also have been fortunate last year to know a dealer who had the Troy SE setup for me to try. I also was fortunate to speak to good audio friends back then who had already had the benefit of listening/owning the Troy (Audiocrack for example).

In the end, I could easily have been happy with either. I liked both dealers. I have done business with both dealers. I bought the Troy for the following reasons:

- At the time, I knew one dealer better (Troy) and considered him both a true professional as well as a friend. That matters to me. Its about trust. His pricing was also fair.
- Additionally, in comparing the two I found that to approach the performance of the Troy SE, I did need more than what I had been given to audition (which already included Silver Tellus, Atlantis, 2 Apollos and 1 Atlantis). And with the Troy in a single box, a trusted dealer/friend and performance that seemed to work better with my system, I went for the Troy.
- Differences?
- I find the Troy even more clear and even more detailed. I did not think this was possible, but that was what occurred to me last year before I made my decision
- The 'quality' of the improvement is similar in both...as described far better than I could by others on this post (incl Spirit and Audiocrack, Barry2013, Cat, and others)
- The area where I remain intrigued is that the Atlantis cable did 1 thing in a deep house track of mine that I have yet to hear with my Troy system. The Atlantis cable/Atlantis box took a series of deep propulsive beats at 3:19 in the track and somehow managed to 'organize' them in a way that when you play it...you realize that the beat was meant to mimic when a DJ scratches on a turntable. It has NEVER sounded that way on my system before. Normally, its just a syncopated rhythm...but it is SO OBVIOUS with Atlantis, that I have decided to break a cardinal rule and try something...

...I am mixing 1-2 Atlantis cables to 'ground the signal' and leave the Tripoint Troy cables to 'ground the chassis'...trust me, I have NO IDEA what I am talking about from a technical perspective...I only know what BOTH camps have told me. I also know that blending cables across connection to RCA vs Chassis screws muddies the presentation.

But I THINK that by adding 2 Atlantis cables (to be done next week) with my Troy...I MIGHT be able to get the clarity of the Troy...with the deep bass propulsion of the Atlantis cable. Troy and Troy cables will ground all the chassis...while Atlantis cables will connect Troy with the RCA inputs of the CJ and Zanden...to 'ground the signal'.

I suppose that makes me officially a fan of both camps!

Well said Lloyd!
It will be fascinating to read the outcome next week so do keep us posted

LL21 said:

Personally, I am not a fad of wading into potentially contentious disagreements regarding a hobby I enjoy because it relaxes me. We have witnessed the folly of disagreements that get out of hand (which had to be 'cleansed' by the Administrators) not 24 hours ago. 'Nuff said.

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Hello Lloyd, I appreciate your candor. I was unaware of any previous disagreements, having only first read this thread yesterday. However as a manufacturer, I have had to deal with grounding issues on many occasions, and getting to the bottom of how its done became a project of sorts, as I found that many manufacturers were not really dealing with it correctly. The problem has to do with the fact that in the old days that 3rd prong (ground) on the power cord did not exist. So manufacturers used a different grounding scheme in those days. These days the ground connection is required by EU Directives (CE mark) and the like, and this has resulted in a variety of methods used by manufacturers in order to meet the EU standards (otherwise they loose a lot of international market), but with varying degrees of success as far as audio is concerned.

It seems to me that an audiophile would be interested in these facts, simply because understanding them can lead to better sound. It is also fairly easy to find out if a manufacturer has sorted out how to ground their equipment to avoid pitfalls that result otherwise. A simple measurement with a DVM can ascertain that. Now I know that you don't want an argument and I am not looking for one. What I **am** interested in finding out is if any of these exotic grounding schemes will have an effect on equipment that otherwise has a proper grounding system already installed internally.

But we can't find that out unless someone is interested in doing the test, which as I said is quite easy to do. If this does intrigue you, let me know on PM.

Atmasphere said:

Hello Lloyd, I appreciate your candor. I was unaware of any previous disagreements, having only first read this thread yesterday. However as a manufacturer, I have had to deal with grounding issues on many occasions, and getting to the bottom of how its done became a project of sorts, as I found that many manufacturers were not really dealing with it correctly. The problem has to do with the fact that in the old days that 3rd prong (ground) on the power cord did not exist. So manufacturers used a different grounding scheme in those days. These days the ground connection is required by EU Directives (CE mark) and the like, and this has resulted in a variety of methods used by manufacturers in order to meet the EU standards (otherwise they loose a lot of international market), but with varying degrees of success as far as audio is concerned.

It seems to me that an audiophile would be interested in these facts, simply because understanding them can lead to better sound. It is also fairly easy to find out if a manufacturer has sorted out how to ground their equipment to avoid pitfalls that result otherwise. A simple measurement with a DVM can ascertain that. Now I know that you don't want an argument and I am not looking for one. What I **am** interested in finding out is if any of these exotic grounding schemes will have an effect on equipment that otherwise has a proper grounding system already installed internally.

But we can't find that out unless someone is interested in doing the test, which as I said is quite easy to do. If this does intrigue you, let me know on PM.

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Hi Atmasphere,

Your email is much appreciated, and I have always enjoyed [trying!] to learn from your great and detailed emails. The 'controversy' I refer to is to try to stave off any Entreq vs Tripoint 'in fighting'...

As for learning more about grounding, I am always interested in learning more. I am told one concept that this whole product point relates to...is the equivalent of having a big old copper pole out in the yard...except that for many of us, that is not a possibility. so this giant box contains 'earthing' materials. You are an industry expert...me, not even a hobbyist with any technical expertise. All I know is...it works. And well.

I will PM though you may find trying to guide me is like teaching a four-yr old algebra. It aint the math that's hard...its the kid who aint ready.

Hello Lloyd, thanks for your PM and consideration. FWIW I'm not interested in the differences between the two products. What I am interested in doing is finding out if your electronics has what one would consider a proper ground connection or not. Put another way, why do these things work? Is it because the equipment has a problem that the grounding system solves? Or is it something else? So far I've not gotten anything that I would consider a straight answer, so I'm hoping to find out for myself, with your assistance of course.

Atmasphere said:

Put another way, why do these things work? Is it because the equipment has a problem that the grounding system solves? Or is it something else? So far I've not gotten anything that I would consider a straight answer, so I'm hoping to find out for myself, with your assistance of course.

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+1. I still can't understand why you need to pay $4000 per silver tellus grounding cable times the number of components you need to ground. How can a non signal carrying wire matter if it's silver or decent quality copper ?

rockitman said:

+1. I still can't understand why you need to pay $4000 per silver tellus grounding cable times the number of components you need to ground. How can a non signal carrying wire matter if it's silver or decent quality copper ?

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I have NO idea...I am only told that these grounding devices also help level out the impedances between the various components...so you want to keep the same metal across the board. Having mixed and matched wires, I can say doing so DOES muddy up stuff...words get just that touch less intelligible at the extremes. Whereas all Tripoint cables on chassis and just the one Atlantis on signal...it clears up quite a bit, and even obscure background choral words become understandable.

As for higher quality cables...I am surprised, but words become more intelligible so I can actually understand the lyrics all the way thru...vs 85% all the way thru on the 'lesser' cables...its easy to swap them in and out, even though the effect takes a while to settle in, a good chunk of the effect is heard immediately. I have NO idea why, and I am taking my time to ensure I am truly hearing a difference and enjoying. So far, I am pretty convinced, but I will see what happens with the 2nd Atlantis before I decide what, if any, changes I may make.

I believe in Asia there are a fair number of users employing Troy grounding on the chassis side AND Entreq grounding on the signal side. Maybe Lloyd is going to be our man over here doing the same.

spiritofmusic said:

I believe in Asia there are a fair number of users employing Troy grounding on the chassis side AND Entreq grounding on the signal side. Maybe Lloyd is going to be our man over here doing the same.

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No kidding! So maybe I am not crazy! Where did you learn this? Would be interested to read if in English. Thanks for the info!