Bass Tightening

jcmusic · Aug 29, 2013

What would be the best economical way to just tighten up the bass in my room using some type of treatments???
The room is 13.5X16X8 I sit 11' from the speakers and there is no back wall. The back of the room opens up to a hallway, bar, and kitchen.
Speakers are in the front corners they are corner horns, so no options to move other than I can toe them in or out a little because of the backs being closed in. Everything sounds good I was just thinking I would like to tighten the bass if I could using some type of treatments... The coffee table is gone!!!

Jay

NorthStar · Aug 29, 2013

Bass traps? ...And more subs.

DonH50 · Aug 29, 2013

Perhaps some work, but I would start by getting a mic and REW to see exactly what the response looks like. It helps to know what you are treating, plus there are many reasons bass might be "loose" and the room is just one...

jcmusic · Aug 29, 2013

Subs are not an option here, it would have to be a folded horn type sub to keep up with the mains and that means big and I don't have the room.

NorthStar said:
Bass traps? ...And more subs.

jcmusic · Aug 29, 2013

Ok I have the mic and REW but I am a little confused on how to use it. I tried awhile back and gave up couldn't get enough support and didn't know if I was doing it correctly.

DonH50 said:
Perhaps some work, but I would start by getting a mic and REW to see exactly what the response looks like. It helps to know what you are treating, plus there are many reasons bass might be "loose" and the room is just one...

DonH50 · Aug 29, 2013

Folded horn sub instead of conventional why? Sensitivity, "speed", or ??? I am just curious your rationale. I went with servo subs for my Maggies based on previous experience and more recent listening and measuring.

DonH50 · Aug 29, 2013

jcmusic said:
Ok I have the mic and REW but I am a little confused on how to use it. I tried awhile back and gave up couldn't get enough support and didn't know if I was doing it correctly.

I do not use REW (I use R+D) but there is a nice thread over on AVS that will help walk you through it.

jcmusic · Aug 29, 2013

don i am using big horns and I have read where the only type sub able to keep up would be a folded horn type.

DonH50 said:
Folded horn sub instead of conventional why? Sensitivity, "speed", or ??? I am just curious your rationale. I went with servo subs for my Maggies based on previous experience and more recent listening and measuring.

NorthStar · Aug 29, 2013

jcmusic said:
Subs are not an option here, it would have to be a folded horn type sub to keep up with the mains and that means big and I don't have the room.

I didn't know that. ...Some judicious EQ then (Parametric type).

And just few links here that might help:

* http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-guide-to-better-bass-tas-197-1/

* http://www.hometoys.com/emagazine/2012/02/what-are-the-characteristics-of-a-good-sounding-room/1511

____________________

* http://www.realtraps.com/facts.htm

- And you also have the music mixing/recordings to consider (link above and below):

* http://blog.indabamusic.com/2011/01/12785-tutorial-12-common-mixing-mistakes/

____________________

* http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esantane/movies/Acoustic.html

Ethan Winer · Aug 29, 2013

jcmusic said:
What would be the best economical way to just tighten up the bass in my room using some type of treatments???

Yes, bass traps. I agree with the post that measuring will show you exactly what problems you have. But home-sized rooms are more alike than different, and adding bass traps always makes the low end tighter and flatter. This short article is mainly about home recording, but all the same principles apply to hi-fi and home theater too:

Acoustic Basics

--Ethan

jcmusic · Aug 29, 2013

Can someone help me understand how to use REW???

Kal Rubinson · Aug 29, 2013

jcmusic said:
..........and I have read where the only type sub able to keep up would be a folded horn type.

If it is just an unsupported assertion, the odds are iffy.

amirm · Aug 29, 2013

jcmusic said:
Can someone help me understand how to use REW???

Quick tutorial on REW has been on my TODO list for a while

. The tools is non-intuitive but easy to use if that makes sense. First thing is whether you have a mic. If you do, plug it in and start REW. Then click on the "measure" button on top left. A pop up appears. There are two VU meters. Tap on the mic or otherwise make some noise and make sure it registers on those VU meters (i.e. their levels go up). That takes care of input. You then need to feed the output of your computer to your stereo. A headphone jack to RCA can feed stereo output easily and you can buy the adapter from many places. Once you connect that, press "start measuring." You should hear a frequency sweep from low to high. Get to this point and then I can explain the next chapter

.

NorthStar · Aug 29, 2013

jcmusic said:
Can someone help me understand how to use REW???

* Room EQ Wizard

* REW - Getting Started

* REW - Tutorial

* REW - And the Entire Enchilada | Simple Setup and Connection with Measurement Techniques + Graphs Interpretation

________________

microstrip · Aug 29, 2013

This one worked for me - ten minutes after installing REW I was taking measurements:

Written by Wayne A. Pflughaupt, taken from http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/33223-rew-tutorial-please-help.html

Re: REW TUTORIAL, please help

Waterfalls are the best graphs for determining the effectiveness of bass traps. I think the best place for them is typically corners, but it would be best to consult your vendor for directions.

Here's a step by step of the REW setup once the soundcard calibration and mic or meter calibration are loaded, and the cables are all hooked up and ready to go.

1. Prepare to run the Check Levels routine (Settings icon, Soundcard tab) selecting Check/Set Levels with Subwoofer in the Levels pull down box, with the SPL meter at the listening position (or the measurement mic, if that’s what your using for the measurements) and the dial of the meter at 80dB position.

2. Change Input Device Input and Output Device Output from Default to USB Audio, or the name of the soundcard, if that option is available, and Speaker for output, and Line In for input.

3. Begin the Check Levels routine. Ensure the REW output VU meter is at -12db and the Sweep Level at -12dB. If those fields are blank, check the two Control Mixer Volume boxes.

4. Set the Wave Volume at 1.000 and the Output Volume about ~0.500. (If those fields are blank).

5. Adjust your receiver’s volume control so the actual standalone Radio Shack SPL meter reads ~75db at the listening position. Then adjust REW Input Volume to end up with -18dB on the REW input VU meter.

6. Still in the Settings section, run the Calibrate SPL routine (Mic/Meter Tab) to match REW's SPL meter to the real SPL meter to ~75dBSPL. Make sure the “C Weighted” SPL meter is checked (if you’re going to use the meter to make the measurements).

7. Close Settings window. Run the Set Target Level routine (Target Settings icon to left of screen), which will set the target to ~75dB. Make the Speaker Type selection for what you want to measure – subwoofer, full range, etc. For subwoofers and bass-limited full range measurements, also, set the Cutoff, which is the crossover frequency you’re using.

8. Run the Measure routine.

9. Using the Graph Axis Limits icon, set the vertical scale to 45dB to 105dB and the horizontal scale for subs to 15Hz to 200Hz.

10. Select Equalizer from the Menu Bar at the top of page, to call up windows to tweak EQ filters.

11. To save the graph, select Graph from Menu Bar, then Save Graph as JPG. Use 800 size setting.

11. To get a waterfall graph, select the Waterfall tab at the top. Then press Generate Waterfall icon at the bottom of the screen.

Regards,
Wayne

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/33223-rew-tutorial-please-help.html#ixzz2dPVPsi7T

DonH50 · Aug 29, 2013

jcmusic said:
don i am using big horns and I have read where the only type sub able to keep up would be a folded horn type.

Hmmm... I'll just say I disagree with that statement and let it go.

The REW tutorials linked by others should help; I do not use it myself so can't help with that.

That looks like a pretty bright room so some treatment could help more than just the bass, but you probably do not want to kill all the brightness if you like the sound.

Ethan's site has a number of excellent articles and tutorials well worth reading. He has some sort of book out, too, that ain't half bad...

jdza · Aug 30, 2013

I am no expert but as a fellow Klipschorn owner I can say the following:

1. I do not think anybody really knows the effect of room treatments on the bass response of a corner horn. Any treatments in the immediate vicinity will be in the "extended horn" formed by the room boundaries and vital to the proper functioning of the horn.That infamous upper bass dip may well become a canyon.

2. Ensure that the backboard of the speaker is tightly sealed into the corner.

3. Finally and IMO where your problem lays: The K horn is a hugely efficient speaker that detests the low power single ended amps it is theoretically such a good bedmate for.Nothing wakes a Khorn better than a high powered solid state amp.Klipsch himself used SAE amps despite his often quoted "What the world needs is a good 5 watt amp" statement. My K Horns does much better now in a second system where an old top end Marantz AVR powers it than it ever did with any of my collection of SETS. A brief affair with a big McIntosh SS amp had it sounding better than I ever heard it.

I see that you have changed the "heads" for something better.That is exactely where my problem started. Again only my opinion but I believe Klipsch's real genius was not that he folded a horn but that he knitted a bunch of of imperfect components together to form a hugely satisfying whole. Improve on any of his compromises and the ball of wool unravels disasterously. When I improved the trebles on my K horns the mids was shown to be ragged. When I improved the mids the Khorn's Achilles heel was revealed- that is the basshorn running out of steam before the midhorn can properly take over leading to a sensation of weakness in the bass. That is why Electrovoice in their licensed version of the Klipschorn added a non horn driven fourth driver and one of my horn mentors,Belgian boffin Karel Schees, added a huge WE midbass horn to his.

From Melaudia.net

My K horns in their "graveyard"

jcmusic · Aug 30, 2013

Thanks for the reply but, I am going to disagree with you on alot of what you said!!! To start with I ran my Khorns with top of the line Marantz SS amps and comparing that to an SET amp is a waste of time!!! The SET amp has it all over the high powered SS amps!!! As for fixing one thing and creating another, well it sounds like you really never fixed anything just went astray!!! The xover is where the magic lies in these horns you must get that right first, and then you can get creative!!! The only thing left to do for me is treat my room I have done all else I wanted to do, I know I did it backwards that is just the way it happened. I really only want to tighten up the bass some and I am done, it sounds really good to me now I am just trying to see if it will get better!!!

Ethan Winer · Aug 30, 2013

jcmusic said:
Can someone help me understand how to use REW???

Here's mine:

Room Measuring Primer

Even if you now have REW working, look at the recommendations in my article for graph ranges. One of the biggest problems I see is people post graphs that are unreadable, or use inappropriate averaging etc.

--Ethan

NorthStar · Aug 30, 2013

jcmusic said:
Thanks for the reply but, I am going to disagree with you on alot of what you said!!! To start with I ran my Khorns with top of the line Marantz SS amps and comparing that to an SET amp is a waste of time!!! The SET amp has it all over the high powered SS amps!!! As for fixing one thing and creating another, well it sounds like you really never fixed anything just went astray!!! The xover is where the magic lies in these horns you must get that right first, and then you can get creative!!! The only thing left to do for me is treat my room I have done all else I wanted to do, I know I did it backwards that is just the way it happened. I really only want to tighten up the bass some and I am done, it sounds really good to me now I am just trying to see if it will get better!!!

Have you ever considered something like Audyssey MultEQ XT32 Pro? ...Or another type of Pro Parametric Sub EQ, or one with FIR filters (or/and IIR filters)?

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