Trinity Phono Stage ... anyone hear this or have opinions?

Dre_J · Aug 27, 2013

jfrech said:
What is everyone's thoughts on phono stages with SUT's (step up transformers) vs all active? Especially around super low output mc's?

It's really about what works best for your system and personal preference with Step-up vs. all active (SS or Tubed). You can find both that are noisy, IMO.

How much gain do you think you need? 60 dB, 65dB, 70dB, or ??

I've been able to run LOMC's from the upper limit of a Goldfinger Statement (0.9 mV output) to a Colibri XGP (0.16 mV output) with 64/70dB Gain Phonostage without any noise issues as a point of reference.

Dre

jfrech · Aug 27, 2013

Dre_J said:
It's really about what works best for your system and personal preference with Step-up vs. all active (SS or Tubed). You can find both that are noisy, IMO.

How much gain do you think you need? 60 dB, 65dB, 70dB, or ??

I've been able to run LOMC's from the upper limit of a Goldfinger Statement (0.9 mV output) to a Colibri XGP (0.16 mV output) with 64/70dB Gain Phonostage without any noise issues as a point of reference.

Dre

Hi pretty sure I am going to need around 70. My Allaert's is .2mv (but some say it's a bit less)...the top end Allaert's is .15mv if I ever go that route. My line stage (Robert Koda K 10) is only +6db so I can't skimp on the phono stage...also the XLR inputs on the koda k10 are transformer coupled to what I think might be a single ended gain stage...so if the new phono stage is 70db balanced...I may only get 64db by using it single ended (not exactly sure how that works)

Seems like several options using SUT's...Like Allnic, Tron, Lamm etc...and then the all active route ARC, Boulder, Trinity and others...

Frank750 · Aug 27, 2013

I have an ARC REF 10 Phono coming in some time next week. Using a Goldfinger Statement with it.

Dre_J · Aug 27, 2013

jfrech said:
Hi pretty sure I am going to need around 70. My Allaert's is .2mv (but some say it's a bit less)...the top end Allaert's is .15mv if I ever go that route. My line stage (Robert Koda K 10) is only +6db so I can't skimp on the phono stage...also the XLR inputs on the koda k10 are transformer coupled to what I think might be a single ended gain stage...so if the new phono stage is 70db balanced...I may only get 64db by using it single ended (not exactly sure how that works)

Seems like several options using SUT's...Like Allnic, Tron, Lamm etc...and then the all active route ARC, Boulder, Trinity and others...

The Colibri worked just fine (quietly) with 64dB gain in my system. However the max total gain after the phonostage may play a role. For me 0.0dB for preamp and around 29 dB for Amps. I never reached anywhere near the upper level of unity gain on the active preamps.

These days, I'm running the system in a fully balanced mode so I gain an extra 6 dB (this is design topology specific and some don't give additional gain when going from single ended to balanced) from the phonostage output which translates into an equal volume setting that's 6dB lower on the preamps.

My suggestion is to be in the mid 60's and up to be safe. You can probably get away with 60 dB given your pre/amp combo has 32dB but some extra margin when necessary is assuring.

This is mostly in reference to your Allaerts. However, above all the gain talk is the performance and noise. Having all the gain one could desire is useless, IMO, if the performance and noise is lacking.

Looks like a nice list of components you have listed to seek out. I hope the process will be enjoyable while searching for the right one.

Dre

Dre_J · Aug 27, 2013

Frank750 said:
I have an ARC REF 10 Phono coming in some time next week. Using a Goldfinger Statement with it.

I've heard this combo. Hope you enjoy.

audioarcher · Aug 27, 2013

jfrech said:
Hi pretty sure I am going to need around 70. My Allaert's is .2mv (but some say it's a bit less)...the top end Allaert's is .15mv if I ever go that route. My line stage (Robert Koda K 10) is only +6db so I can't skimp on the phono stage...also the XLR inputs on the koda k10 are transformer coupled to what I think might be a single ended gain stage...so if the new phono stage is 70db balanced...I may only get 64db by using it single ended (not exactly sure how that works)

Seems like several options using SUT's...Like Allnic, Tron, Lamm etc...and then the all active route ARC, Boulder, Trinity and others...

The problem with gain specs for phono stages is they usually don't say what the SNR is for that gain. Even if they do state the SNR they are often a bit optimistic IMO. You really need to listen to a phono stage to get a good idea of how quiet it really is. I would try before you buy for that cart.

jfrech · Aug 27, 2013

Frank750 said:
I have an ARC REF 10 Phono coming in some time next week. Using a Goldfinger Statement with it.

I am listening to a ref2se and a boulder on fri, pretty curious on the ref2se...let us know your thoughts on the ref10. The trinity i posted up front is about in the same rice range...

jfrech · Aug 27, 2013

audioarcher said:
The problem with gain specs for phono stages is they usually don't say what the SNR is for that gain. Even if they do state the SNR they are often a bit optimistic IMO. You really need to listen to a phono stage to get a good idea of how quiet it really is. I would try before you buy for that cart.

Good advice...i agree

jfrech · Aug 30, 2013

I got to listen the Audio Research Ref 2SE today vs the Boulder 1008 phono stage. The system was Wilson Audio Alexia's, Dan a'gastino (sp?) amp and pre, AMG turntable and arm with a Lyra Kleos cartridge. Shunyata AC cabling/conditioner and Nordost signal/speaker cables.

The are both great phono stages. One isn't better than the other...but they two are very different from each other. The ARC Ref 2SE had big images and big presentation...very good detail and air. I just kinda melted right into it...

Then we switched to the Boulder 1008. The soundstage was just as wide and deep, however the images had more specificity with in that soundstage stage along with more detail and resolution. The surprise was the Boulder sounded a touch warmer in the mids and top end. The bass and top end was certainly more extended and resolute, the cymbals more sweet and it really conveyed the emotion and intent on the musician better. I could hear the Miles Davis' trumpet inflections more clearly...or course the boulder had a blacker background...but the ARC had next to zero noise with your ear 1 inch from the wilson tweeters..

In this system, I responded to the Boulder...I wish I could have compared it to my Nagra VPS in the same system...

Surprised me a bit, I thought the tubes in the ARC would have been the better compliment with the SS pre and amp.

Your mileage may certainly vary...

TRINITY · Sep 13, 2013

Measurement results

Hi all together, I am Dietmar the designer of the TRINITY Audio Line. If you are interested in measurement results you should visit our website. We publish all measurement results on our webpage with the input settings. The most measurements are done with 350µV at 1kHz. Since, if you do not know the input setting you cannot judge the results.
My philosophy is what you see is what you get. Every product is delivered with its own measurement protocol.
So it is easy to read the dynamic range in dB or the distortion, which does not exist in %. On the other hand you can compare our results with the one published at “Stereophile”. I am pretty sure a frequency response accuracy of +/-0.025dB and all the other results are outstanding.
Please read the manual, which is full of useful staff. On page12 you can see a FFT of a 20Hz input signal based on a 150µV setting at 1kHz. The noise level is limited by the input resistance, since you cannot fool the physics. I reached the level of performance since I use 96IC in the Phono!! Not counting the extreme low noise voltage regulators.
By the way I found the root cause of this very small 50Hz spur, which is only visible at the 150µV setting and of course I have already implemented the solution.

Dietmar

jfrech · Sep 13, 2013

TRINITY said:
Hi all together, I am Dietmar the designer of the TRINITY Audio Line. If you are interested in measurement results you should visit our website. We publish all measurement results on our webpage with the input settings. The most measurements are done with 350µV at 1kHz. Since, if you do not know the input setting you cannot judge the results.
My philosophy is what you see is what you get. Every product is delivered with its own measurement protocol.
So it is easy to read the dynamic range in dB or the distortion, which does not exist in %. On the other hand you can compare our results with the one published at “Stereophile”. I am pretty sure a frequency response accuracy of +/-0.025dB and all the other results are outstanding.
Please read the manual, which is full of useful staff. On page12 you can see a FFT of a 20Hz input signal based on a 150µV setting at 1kHz. The noise level is limited by the input resistance, since you cannot fool the physics. I reached the level of performance since I use 96IC in the Phono!! Not counting the extreme low noise voltage regulators.
By the way I found the root cause of this very small 50Hz spur, which is only visible at the 150µV setting and of course I have already implemented the solution.

Dietmar

Thanks for replying. Any more you can reveal about the construction? My favorite cartridge right now is a Allaerts MC2 Finish...which has a .18 to .2mv output and apparently a preferred loading of 845. I can re-terminate my phono cable to din to xlr (I saw the wiring diagrams in the manual)...however my preamp only has one xlr input. So either the phono stage or my digital will have to run single ended. How much loss if I happen to purchase your phono stage but run into RCA inputs on my preamp? Just 6db on gain?

Also, my preamp (Robert Koda K10) is low gain, so i have to ensure the phono stage can do most all the work here....Thanks

TRINITY · Sep 13, 2013

single ended

jfrech said:
Thanks for replying. Any more you can reveal about the construction? My favorite cartridge right now is a Allaerts MC2 Finish...which has a .18 to .2mv output and apparently a preferred loading of 845. I can re-terminate my phono cable to din to xlr (I saw the wiring diagrams in the manual)...however my preamp only has one xlr input. So either the phono stage or my digital will have to run single ended. How much loss if I happen to purchase your phono stage but run into RCA inputs on my preamp? Just 6db on gain?

Also, my preamp (Robert Koda K10) is low gain, so i have to ensure the phono stage can do most all the work here....Thanks

Jfrech,
my target is to establish a complete TRINITY line, whereby the sources match with the preamp and the preamp with the power amp. So and only so I can realize the best performance. If you want to use only the TRINITY PHONO with a single ended output you loose of course 6dB and 6 gain stages per channel are not used at all. Means you run a 12 cylinder engine on 6 cylinders. Not a good idea, even if it works, it is waste of money. If you calculate the so called noise figure of a multistage design, you will see that the gain of the first stage is the most important parameter. That means the low noise behaviour is not touch by a single ended output. Also the other parameters will be the same, but the gain goes down from 72dB to 66dB. If this will work depends on the gain of your preamp and the input sensitivity of you power amp.
The used 180µV MC is no problem, the 10 values of the MC load connector can be chosen by you, if you want one with smaller steps around 845Ohm we can assemble this for you.
A better interims solution would be to use Model PC-2XR from http://www.jensen-transformers.com/iso_aud.html betwenn the TRINITY Phono and your existing Preamp. In this case you get the same 72dB single-ended. Please read the data sheet of this device. The distortions below 100Hz will increase with the use of the transformer, but even at 20Hz they are below 80dB for 4dBu (1,22Vrms) and your MC will deliver lower voltages. Means the distortions will also be lower.
Dietmar

TRINITY · Sep 14, 2013

AudioArts

TRINITY said:
Jfrech,
my target is to establish a complete TRINITY line, whereby the sources match with the preamp and the preamp with the power amp. So and only so I can realize the best performance. If you want to use only the TRINITY PHONO with a single ended output you loose of course 6dB and 6 gain stages per channel are not used at all. Means you run a 12 cylinder engine on 6 cylinders. Not a good idea, even if it works, it is waste of money. If you calculate the so called noise figure of a multistage design, you will see that the gain of the first stage is the most important parameter. That means the low noise behaviour is not touch by a single ended output. Also the other parameters will be the same, but the gain goes down from 72dB to 66dB. If this will work depends on the gain of your preamp and the input sensitivity of you power amp.
The used 180µV MC is no problem, the 10 values of the MC load connector can be chosen by you, if you want one with smaller steps around 845Ohm we can assemble this for you.
A better interims solution would be to use Model PC-2XR from http://www.jensen-transformers.com/iso_aud.html betwenn the TRINITY Phono and your existing Preamp. In this case you get the same 72dB single-ended. Please read the data sheet of this device. The distortions below 100Hz will increase with the use of the transformer, but even at 20Hz they are below 80dB for 4dBu (1,22Vrms) and your MC will deliver lower voltages. Means the distortions will also be lower.
Dietmar

Jfrech,
I have changed a couple of emails with Gideon from AudioArts and discussed your issue. The best way is you arrange a listening session with him, he organize such recommended isolation transformer with XLR-In and XLR-Out, which can be placed direct between the TRINITY PHONO and the TRINITY PREAMP. Since both devices are free from distortion you can easily hear, if the transformer solution is acceptable for your problem. If this is acceptable, which I really believe, you can test your own final set-up at AudioArts.
After my really negative experiences in the DAC forum, I have decided to leave this forum. There are people here in the forum, who only want get hand on companies IPs and these people are really disappointed, if they do not get what they want or if they do not understand what they already got and write in a tone, which is impolite and shows no respect to the other bloggers or to the products, which are bespoken. Unfortunately the serious people like you are the indirect victims.
I hope for your understanding and if you have any further technical problems please contact Gideon. I am sure we will find a professional solution.

jfrech · Sep 14, 2013

Dietmar, I appreciate your time here. I'll get with Gideon and try to arrange a demo soon. I'll likely put the phono stage into my lone xlr input (which is transformer coupled btw) and use the above arrangement for my digital...vinyl is my favorite source.

Sorry for the other stuff on this forum...

tunes · Nov 20, 2013

Inserted a trinity phono in my system on the weekend and it really is superb. Setup is amg v12 with allaerts finish through trinity nagra jazz, nagra vpa, verity amadis. Have tried arc ref 2 but that proved noisy at reasonable volumes. Been using a tron ultimate with high gain for the finish over past 6 months, also superb but a bit noisy on quiet passages at reasonable listening levels. Then tried a nagra vps but as much as i wanted to love it, it doesn't complement the needy finish, and gain is too low, even on high gain setting on vps and in jazz. I should say that i haven't tried it with a good SUT. Have decided to keep it for now for use with other carts.
The trinity has both high gain and a silent, clear background. For the super low output finish, inserting the trinity in the mix is really exciting. I've been captivated by the combo of ss and tube in the system. Now running it into the jazz "unbalanced" xlr input (but balanced out) Would like to try the balanced transformer input option on the jazz eventually. Anybody have experience with this option??
Really dynamic and deeper soundstage than i have ever heard in my system. Funny, i have moved from SS to Tubes to settle on a mixture.

puroagave · Nov 20, 2013

tunes said:
... Funny, i have moved from SS to Tubes to settle on a mixture.

i did the same then went back to a klyne system 7 phono stage. after three tubed phono sections in a row i think i found the right balance of tradeoffs.
the trinity looks interesting, does it use discrete devices and a switch mode PS?

rockitman · Nov 20, 2013

I'm done with solid state phono pre's after hearing my H5000 that just destroys my XP-25 from a musical standpoint. The sound staging, imaging, transparency, micro and macro dynamics are superior, not to mention a far more accurate timbre in terms of voices and instruments. I give up a little in bass solidity and noise. It's a more than worthwhile trade off for me in my system.

Fremer does do an introductory review of the trinity in Stereophile this month (a more detailed review next year). The fact remains, SS is not going to touch the musical enjoyment and realism of tubes, imo when it comes to phono stages. My short summary of the XP-25 vs Allnic H5000....the XP sounds like a quality recording, the H5000...a live performance.

puroagave · Nov 20, 2013

rockitman said:
I'm done with solid state phono pre's after hearing my H5000 that just destroys my XP-25 from a musical standpoint. The sound staging, imaging, transparency, micro and macro dynamics are superior, not to mention a far more accurate timbre in terms of voices and instruments. I give up a little in bass solidity and noise. It's a more than worthwhile trade off for me in my system.

Fremer does do an introductory review of the trinity in Stereophile this month (a more detailed review next year). The fact remains, SS is not going to touch the musical enjoyment and realism of tubes, imo when it comes to phono stages. My short summary of the XP-25 vs Allnic H5000....the XP sounds like a quality recording, the H5000...a live performance.

she sounds like a keeper, but like every passionate love affair theres a back to reality period when you can clearly see her warts - it just takes some time. i havent had the pleasure of listening to any of allnic phono pres in my system and i probably should. i now regret trading my Allaerts because its loading requirments couldnt be met with my then phono preamps (coincidently, all of them tube).

Frank750 · Nov 20, 2013

rockitman said:
I'm done with solid state phono pre's after hearing my H5000 that just destroys my XP-25 from a musical standpoint. The sound staging, imaging, transparency, micro and macro dynamics are superior, not to mention a far more accurate timbre in terms of voices and instruments. I give up a little in bass solidity and noise. It's a more than worthwhile trade off for me in my system.

Fremer does do an introductory review of the trinity in Stereophile this month (a more detailed review next year). The fact remains, SS is not going to touch the musical enjoyment and realism of tubes, imo when it comes to phono stages. My short summary of the XP-25 vs Allnic H5000....the XP sounds like a quality recording, the H5000...a live performance.

With all due respect, I think you're over simplifying the tube vs solid state comparison. You are comparing a $30,000+ tube phono preamp with a $10,000 solid state unit. I would hope there would be no comparison.

rockitman · Nov 20, 2013

Frank750 said:
With all due respect, I think you're over simplifying the tube vs solid state comparison. You are comparing a $30,000+ tube phono preamp with a $10,000 solid state unit. I would hope there would be no comparison.

What others can compete ? The trinity? The Boulder, the 70k Vitus ? In any event, I'm a tube believer now when it comes to source components.

Trinity Phono Stage ... anyone hear this or have opinions?

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