Bose

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 22, 2013

So, this morning I bring my dad back from a doctor's appointment to his assisted living facility. When we walk in, someone is playing the place's grand piano...and I hear an organ...and then a woman begins to sing and really, the only thing that gave away the presence of a sound reinforcement system was the volume. I look around the corner and there is a woman singing along to pre-recorded music through a Bose L1 system. Ever seen one? This was the entry-level model ($999) -- a tall, thin line array of small speakers rising out of a subwoofer base.

The singer is walking all around the thing, right in front of it, wireless microphone in hand...no feedback. There are no monitors for her to hear through and when I walked across the room behind the old folks listening, I could see why. The sound was very evenly dispersed, and sounded the same from everywhere in the rather large room. No different from completely off to the side, at the entrance where I first heard it, than it sounded directly out front.And it sounded good. Very easy and natural. I doubt you could run a drum kit through it and capture anything close to the real dynamics, but for this purpose, it was pretty remarkable. It would probably be perfect for a solo or duo.

I guess they can do some things right.

Tim

flez007 · Aug 22, 2013

I am planning to get one of those Bose towers for ourdoors use, easy to pack and sounds ok.

NorthStar · Aug 23, 2013

Sounds like your Dad is living in a decent surrounding sound environment, Tim.

garylkoh · Aug 23, 2013

It's quite a brilliant design. The secret is that it is a line source - with the associated great dispersion and 3dB drop-off per doubling of distance. Then, they roll off the high frequencies so that it does not beam as a result of short wavelengths, but has enough high frequencies to fool you easily. That's why it sounds natural and relaxed = there is no need for the audiophile 20-20. I think that it goes up to only 13kHz or thereabouts.

NorthStar · Aug 23, 2013

13kHz is pretty much where my ears stop. ...And that place where Tim's dad live (assisted living facility) is where I'll be myself soon enough, and the ears of the people living there are not the young ears any more that they used to be, so.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 23, 2013

My ears are no longer young themselves, and they missed nothing in that eq. You answered my question, though, Gary. I know Bose is big on built-in eq settings and wondered if they were using anything in that product. I was also wondering if I could create something similar from line array columns and subs, powered by a conventional PA powered mixer for larger rooms/more flexibility. It sounds like I could and that it might be a good replacement for conventional passive horn/woofer type speakers in any situation where the sound doesn't have to be projected very far. I suppose the "subs" would have to be carefully chosen, though, because the crossover point to an array of small midrange speakers would be very high? Gary, do you know how they completely avoid feedback?

Tim

audioguy · Aug 23, 2013

Phelonious Ponk said:
I guess they can do some things right.

Tim

They do LOTS of things right -- like make a lot of money, continue to impress the less informed with their more traditional products, and stay in business with some innovative products. The Krells, Magico's and Wilson's of the world could only dream of that kind of revenue and profitability.

I am in a Friday morning men's group and we use one of those Bose sound reinforcement systems and they really do work great.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 23, 2013

I watched an online demo of a guy using one for an amplified acoustic guitar. He held the thing right up to the speaker - the sound hole of the guitar wasn't six inches away. Not a bit of feedback. That's cool.

Tim

DonH50 · Aug 23, 2013

I've seen a couple of these and had several people ask but I have no personal hands-on experience so have always deferred. They do seem to work well though reviews are mixed; seem to side with the opinion they are better for solo/small group than rock bands or larger groups. I wonder if they use active feedback control?

garylkoh · Aug 23, 2013

I would believe that they use active feedback control. Same in the demo we did in Hong Kong. The performers were fascinated because of the dipole Genesis Dragons. Instead of listening to a crappy floor-monitor, they essentially heard what the audience heard and loved it.

When I asked the sound/recording folks how they avoided feedback with the mics within the radiation pattern of the speakers, they told me that it was done inside the microphone amplifier.

No feedback even standing right in front of the speakers. I don't know how it's done, but I was scared that feedback would destroy the ribbons. Thankfully, nothing of the sort happened.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 23, 2013

DonH50 said:
I've seen a couple of these and had several people ask but I have no personal hands-on experience so have always deferred. They do seem to work well though reviews are mixed; seem to side with the opinion they are better for solo/small group than rock bands or larger groups. I wonder if they use active feedback control?

I think that's probably true within reason. I remember when Bose introduce the system, and this was before the "compact" version, so we're talking about a couple of grand each, they recommended a system for each player -- so a 5-piece band would have four line arrays and subs (the drummer doesn't need one) on stage, behind each player. I suspect that would do the trick, but it would be a very expensive compact PA for playing small clubs.

Tim

DonH50 · Aug 23, 2013

Hmmm... My impression was more of dynamic range and frequency response limitations; multiple speakers (even line arrays) could cause fierce comb filter and boundary effects in use.

I have not researched these hardly at all, and last time was a few years ago, so I should look again. Just curious. When they came out the brochures and white papers provided were long on marketing and very short on engineering. I do not recall them saying active feedback control but hard to see how they work without it. There are lots of such processors out there (dbx probably one of the best-known since they can be had fairly cheaply) so Bose could certainly have implemented a version.

NorthStar · Aug 23, 2013

This is an interesting thread Tim; about BOSE.

So many people have misconceptions about the name, or total disdain.

But fact is that he was ingenious on many things; like his bazookas (rocket launchers) used behind the theater screens (subwoofer).
And Bose pro monitors (PA system) are used by several pro musicians, and some elegant Bose speakers are used in high-end restaurants.

I've seen and heard lots of Bose speakers, and they are perfect for their intended use and type of classy clientele.
For small acoustic bands with one, two, or three musicians; they are some of the cream of pro monitors.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 23, 2013

DonH50 said:
Hmmm... My impression was more of dynamic range and frequency response limitations; multiple speakers (even line arrays) could cause fierce comb filter and boundary effects in use.

I have not researched these hardly at all, and last time was a few years ago, so I should look again. Just curious. When they came out the brochures and white papers provided were long on marketing and very short on engineering. I do not recall them saying active feedback control but hard to see how they work without it. There are lots of such processors out there (dbx probably one of the best-known since they can be had fairly cheaply) so Bose could certainly have implemented a version.

In the multiple use scenario, each array/sub combo amplified a different instrument or voice, so these effects would only vary from individual instrument amplifiers because of the broader dispersion of the line arrays. And it would potentially provied much more natural presentation of instrument positions than a stereo PA system. But like I said, it was a very expensive small club solution, and I've never seen, or heard of it actually being used.

Tim

JackD201 · Aug 23, 2013

NorthStar said:
This is an interesting thread Tim; about BOSE.

So many people have misconceptions about the name, or total disdain.

But fact is that he was ingenious on many things; like his bazookas (rocket launchers) used behind the theater screens (subwoofer).
And Bose pro monitors (PA system) are used by several pro musicians, and some elegant Bose speakers are used in high-end restaurants.

I've seen and heard lots of Bose speakers, and they are perfect for their intended use and type of classy clientele.
For small acoustic bands with one, two, or three musicians; they are some of the cream of pro monitors.

I believe you mean Wave Cannons Bob

Bazookas were another brand (car subwoofers)

NorthStar · Aug 23, 2013

JackD201 said:
I believe you mean Wave Cannons Bob Bazookas were another brand (car subwoofers)

Yes, looks like you're right Jack. ... Bose Acoustic Wave Cannon System

-----

_____________

_____________

Bose Bazooka => http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1792584

Wayne A. Pflughaupt · Aug 23, 2013

I play in a band that uses those Bose systems. When I joined they had already decided to pull the trigger and I was cringing at the thought, and especially the price. But I have to say I’ve been fairly impressed with them. There is also a bass module available that has only a couple of 6” woofs, but it does a decent job for bass guitars. All in all, a dandy system for smallish venues, even if it is overpriced. It’s designed for plugging in something like 4 inputs, but we use ours (two of them) with a traditional mixer. From what I hear, they work well in most venues except those that are extremely reverberant, such as gymnasiums. For rooms like that, the Bose’s wide dispersion doesn’t cut it - speakers with tight dispersion of the hi freq drivers are the ticket.

Phelonious Ponk said:
The singer is walking all around the thing, right in front of it, wireless microphone in hand...no feedback.

They have a numerical dial that can be set for particular mics, etc. you are using. I assume that gets feedback compensation built-in.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

j_j · Aug 25, 2013

DonH50 said:
Hmmm... My impression was more of dynamic range and frequency response limitations; multiple speakers (even line arrays) could cause fierce comb filter and boundary effects in use.

Properly designed into an array, actually, they can work extraordinarily well, no lobing, no comb filtering, and very controlled directivity in the dimension along the length of the array. (i.e. a tall focused array has a narrow vertical dispersion, despite what might seem otherwise)

Now, properly done means more or less that each two drivers have a separate time delay, filter, and amplifier. Basically you can assume for most (but not all) uses that you can drive an element and it's element symmetric through the middle with the same signal for aiming straight ahead (in this case horizontal). It is not necessary to "roll off" high frequencies, if your filters for all the drivers are properly designed.

I'm not sure what you mean by boundary effects here. What were you thinking of?

N.B. If you want to aim a signal at an angle you must have a delay, filter, and amp per each speaker driver.

DonH50 · Aug 25, 2013

Most bands lack knowledge of basic acoustic principles and the arrays crisscross the stage. At least the very few multi-array Bose set-ups I have seen; they aimed the arrays to use as monitors (two guitars, keyboard, and two vocalists, with the speakers aimed at each other). Of course line arrays tend to beam pretty well and thus avoid such effects, but not when pointed at each other...

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 26, 2013

I think the basic performance principle of these speakers is based on the fact that they don't beam. And if each instrument/vocalist has his own system, and assuming they point them toward the audience, how is the comb filtering of this audio any different than what would occur in the mixing of acoustic instruments in the same space?

Tim

Bose

New Member

Member Sponsor

Member

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)

Member

New Member

WBF Founding Member

New Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)

New Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert

Member

New Member

WBF Founding Member

Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert

New Member

Similar threads