Michael Fremer's Cartridge Comparison

John Elison

New Member
Oct 22, 2012
9
0
0
Has anyone listened to the recordings posted by Michael Fremer on the Analog Planet website? He recorded nine different high-output cartridges on a VPI Traveler for comparison and posted a 10th recording of the same piece played on his Continuum Caliburn turntable with an Ortofon Anna cartridge. There are certainly differences among all the cartridges, but the similarities are also interesting. I could not identify his expensive rig by listening. However, I could identify it by other means. Check it out at the following link.

Fremer's Cartridge Comparison
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,006
512
1,740
Snohomish, WA
www.pugetsoundstudios.com
They are poor recordings using a marginal A/D converter.

Not at same RMS level and "Normalizing" will not do that.

What people don't realize, loudness is perceived by average RMS level. If you "Normalize" something, it will just raise the peak level to what you want.

All of these files have different peak levels depending on pops/ticks. If there is a pop/tick at a level of -9dB, then everything will be raised 8.9dB if you normalize to -0.1dB

Now if a file has pop/tick at -7, then normalization will raise everything 6.9dB if you normalize to -0.1dB

Nothing was done to the "Average RMS", just the peak level.
 
Last edited:

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
With my mac, I cannot download the links.
 

John Elison

New Member
Oct 22, 2012
9
0
0
Well, I don't recall any pops or ticks. If there were any, they were well underneath the average level of the music.

It would have been better if the pieces were recorded with the same volume level, but unless you are making A/B comparisons, I don't think that aspect is real critical. I simply listened to one after the other and adjusted volume accordingly.

They all sounded pretty good on my system, which is very resolving. I didn't hear mistracking or anomalies of that type. The shocking thing to me is that the expensive Continuum Caliburn with Ortofon Anna didn't sound as good as most of the other much less expensive cartridges.
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
Finally downloaded them. Listened to them on VLC, which may or not be the best way, and Stax headphones through Manley 300b neo preamp.

I voted for 8 as best because it had he smoothest dynamics while retaining separation, and the female vocalist was most recognizable as a female when she first comes in.

2 and 10 were good, but a pit peaky on the horns, but excellent separation in general.

6 and 7 good also rans.

I can't say any of them sounded bad, some thrills in the throats of the horns were more apparent on some than on the others, some glared and grained on peaks.

Now I get to find out what vitiated form of tin my ears are made of when the results are published.

I have my excuses all worked out, i.e. poor volume matching, digititis, poor recording technique etc., couldn't be my ears.
 
Last edited:

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
Listened through them through the Pleasanton big rig. I am now hoping that #8 is one of the cheaper cartridges, because if it is, I may buy one for Santa Cruz.

On my main system, the sax on the #8 piece was magical. I actually got up to take the needle off the table when the cut was done playing, forgetting it was a digital file being played through the built in mini mac dac on the mini mac's analog output.
 

John Elison

New Member
Oct 22, 2012
9
0
0
Listened through them through the Pleasanton big rig. I am now hoping that #8 is one of the cheaper cartridges, because if it is, I may buy one for Santa Cruz.

The only cartridge I can identify is the Ortofon Anna because the Continuum Caliburn turntable sticks out like a sore thumb if you know what to look for. The Continuum Caliburn with Ortofon Anna is cartridge test file #5. I can not identify any of the other cartridges.
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
The only cartridge I can identify is the Ortofon Anna because the Continuum Caliburn turntable sticks out like a sore thumb if you know what to look for. The Continuum Caliburn with Ortofon Anna is cartridge test file #5. I can not identify any of the other cartridges.

If that is the case, at least from these files, I am glad I didn't spend my 150K on the Anna and the Caliburn turntable. Anyway, listening to them carefully again on my better stax rig in Santa Cruz, I still like 8 best.

#5 sounds kind of boomy and compressed in some parts, but I suppose those who play the files will get different results depending on their dacs, speakers, earsets etc.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
If that is the case, at least from these files, I am glad I didn't spend my 150K on the Anna and the Caliburn turntable. .

do you really think you can make a good turntable purchase decision based on a needle drop ? Let alone, as Bruce has mentioned...one done with an inferior a/d ?
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
do you really think you can make a good turntable purchase decision based on a needle drop ? Let alone, as Bruce has mentioned...one done with an inferior a/d ?

I believe I qualified my statement. I am not buying a turntable. I like what I have.

There obviously are lots of variables here. As far as using hi rez digital files as rail guides, I would have to say on the basis of what I hear from file 5, no, I would not buy that cartridge when I could buy the cartridge from 8 for much less. Remember, the Anna also has the benefit of a superior phono stage and turntable as well, it should be markedly, noticibly better even in a digital file.

The so called "blind" listening is supposed to be for fun and speculation anyway, not argument.

To state preferences is taking a risk when you don't know specifically what equipment you are listening to. I took the challenge and I am fine with having egg on my face if that is what happens. I am certainly not going to say I suddenly like 5 better when I don't just because somebody said 5 was the more expensive equipment.

I am not opposed to expensive equipment when it serves its purpose, so I would also have no problem saying the speculative Anna/Caliburn was superior in file 5 if that is what I heard.

If 8 is a modest cartridge on a modest turntable with a relatively modest phono stage and sounds like that, than that would make it a bit of a find that fits my PREFERENCES quite well. Also, I have to date not heard a digital recording of an LP that sounds as good as the LP playing on a decent rig, so there's that, too, maybe the Anna/Caliburn have some quality that does not convey through the digital file.
 
Last edited:

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,467
11,363
4,410
do you really think you can make a good turntable purchase decision based on a needle drop ? Let alone, as Bruce has mentioned...one done with an inferior a/d ?

I have zero faith in needle drops from 'vinyl->digital' relating to useful truths in gear decisions. not saying it might not be fun or have some small degree of relative comparative value. but it could/should only be used as a 'data point'.....like hearing gear at a show. possibly it might point you in the direction of gear you otherwise would not consider. maybe if you heard 50 or 100 examples of the needle drop on vinyl rig 'A' verses vinyl rig 'B' it might begin to tell you something useful.

so i'm not knocking it for what it is, only for how you would use it.
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
You guys are talking informercial politics over the Anna. At the moment, I am just listening to anonymous digital files and making my own preferential comparisons. I am not making any claim as to which is which. That came from somebody else, I was merely speculating on his speculation. I had also forgotten the "history" between John Elison and ML, but which now I can conjure quite well to muddy the waters.

I am sure Fremer would hope that the Anna/Caliburn likewise would stick out like a sore thumb in superiority. Maybe John Elison has a way of analyzing the waveforms to extract the file with a unique signature to determine which file is the Anna, I don't know. Fremer was either courageous or foolhardy putting the files up, but I tend to think he was displaying some fortitude.

What DOES a digital file tell you? It can inform you about relative dynamics, depth and quality of bass, separation of voices and instruments in the sound field, whether a high dynamic content is rendered smoothly or jagged and sawtoothed, tracking, speed stability, relative surface noise rendition, size of imaging etc. etc.

What CAN'T a digital file do? It can't inform you about ultimate charm factor/smoothness of a cartridge or playback system or ultimate tonality/depth. The digital files I have made myself and heard on mine and other's systems are always a tad brittle, noisy and flatter by comparison to the real thing.
 
Last edited:

John Elison

New Member
Oct 22, 2012
9
0
0
What CAN'T a digital file do? It can't inform you about ultimate charm factor/smoothness of a cartridge or playback system or ultimate tonality/depth. The digital files I have made myself and heard on mine and other's systems are always a tad brittle, noisy and flatter by comparison to the real thing.

Well, there are definitely differing opinions on the subject of whether digital can accurately capture the essence of vinyl. Personally, I believe that my 24/96 digital recordings of vinyl made on an Alesis Masterlink can reproduce all aspects of vinyl accurately and convincingly. Whether or not Michael Fremer's recordings have succeeded in that regard is yet to be determined.

One thing I believe Michael Fremer's digital recordings have accomplished is to show us that we don't need an ultra expensive high-end turntable to get full enjoyment from vinyl. I discovered this when I bought a Dynavector XV-1 phono cartridge and compared it to more reasonably priced Audio Technica and Denon cartridges. I also felt this way after buying my Technics SL-1200, which sounds very good compared to my much more expensive Sota Millennia Vacuum turntable with SME V tonearm.

Anyway, I want to commend Michael Fremer for this pioneering effort to demonstrate the sound of vinyl through high-resolution digital recordings. I have been making digital recordings of vinyl since 1991 and I hope Michael Fremer will do more of this in the future.

Best regards,
John Elison
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,323
1,313
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
Well, there are definitely differing opinions on the subject of whether digital can accurately capture the essence of vinyl. Personally, I believe that my 24/96 digital recordings of vinyl made on an Alesis Masterlink can reproduce all aspects of vinyl accurately and convincingly. Whether or not Michael Fremer's recordings have succeeded in that regard is yet to be determined.

One thing I believe Michael Fremer's digital recordings have accomplished is to show us that we don't need an ultra expensive high-end turntable to get full enjoyment from vinyl. I discovered this when I bought a Dynavector XV-1 phono cartridge and compared it to more reasonably priced Audio Technica and Denon cartridges. I also felt this way after buying my Technics SL-1200, which sounds very good compared to my much more expensive Sota Millennia Vacuum turntable with SME V tonearm.

Anyway, I want to commend Michael Fremer for this pioneering effort to demonstrate the sound of vinyl through high-resolution digital recordings. I have been making digital recordings of vinyl since 1991 and I hope Michael Fremer will do more of this in the future.

Best regards,
John Elison

I should probably qualify and say IN MY EXPERIENCE, rather than completely generalize. I am open to the idea that a good digital recording and playback chain could get very, very close. I am familiar with your recording techniques described in audio asylum, and they are superior to the ones I have used.
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
895
13
930
I listened to only files 2,5,7, and 8, but none of the others because I'm too lazy. Anyway, I heard them through a Terratec 96/24 pro card with middle-priced Grado headphones. I don't generally do digital, except for YouTube, so I have no need for very good headphones at this computer. The Stax cans on my main system stayed there.

I found #2 to be thin sounding with edginess around the instruments. I didn't like it at all.

#5 was too polite for my tastes, and it just didn't seem musical to me. I wouldn't buy it based on the file. A real life audition could tell a different story. I doubt it.

My pick from the samples I heard was #7. It was lively and musical, lacking only a bit of control, which may have been the fault of the turntable.

#8 was better than #2 all around, and more musical than #5 to my ears. Still, I thought it sounded rather pedestrian in nature.


Disclaimer: I believe I was listening to mediocre stuff through what I know is a mediocre setup. My mileage might vary, if I heard the real thing. :D
 
Last edited:

jazdoc

Member Sponsor
Aug 7, 2010
3,320
730
1,200
Bellevue
Firstly, kudos to Fremer for taking the time and effort to attempt a rather audacious project. If nothing else, hopefully it will generate some interesting discussion.

As others have noted, I am also dubious regarding the premise. Nailing a cartridge set up is tedious and in my experience, best accomplished over many listening sessions. Furthermore, the last little bit of tweaking is where the magic often happens. Despite his expertise, I suspect most, if not all of the setups could have been further optimized. Then you have the realities of comparing digital files generated from an unfamiliar system...

IMO, a more valuable exercise would be to make digital files of the same track during the various stages of dialing in a cartridge...Many (?most?) vinyl systems can benefit from improved set up. Other than time and frustration, this would make a free upgrade for many vinyl systems...possibly more compelling than purchasing on an imore expensive but mproperly set up cartridge. Just my opinion.
 

John Elison

New Member
Oct 22, 2012
9
0
0
Maybe John Elison has a way of analyzing the waveforms to extract the file with a unique signature to determine which file is the Anna, I don't know.

It is actually a bit simpler than that. Any time you have two different turntables, the probability is reasonably high that both will not spin at exactly the same speed. I simply timed all the recordings with a stop watch and found one with a significantly different time. Nine of them had the same time to within a tenth of a second but cartridge test file #5 took a full second longer. Since I would expect the Caliburn to be spinning at the correct speed, I assumed the Traveler was spinning about 0.5% fast. At any rate, the Traveler was spinning about 0.5% faster than the Caliburn.

Best regards,
John Elison
 

TBone

New Member
Nov 15, 2012
1,237
1
0
Funny nobody (I know) got #5 correct, including John Elison (didn't actually use his ears - which was the entire point of the exercise).

I first thought that my own processes were the bottleneck, in which I took the original FLAC files and down-converted them to 16/44 in order to listen on my particular CDP (although I could have played them on my Panny Blu Ray player as native files). However, since I heard differences related to the quality of other carts and considering the few units I preferred did turn out to be the better sounding carts within the Traveller group (I chose Ort.Black as my favorite), I'm not all that certain my processes represented a bottleneck.

I've not heard Fremers rig, but I will assume it's superior to the Traveller in every sense regardless of cart, and this should be EASILY demonstrable using needle-drops. I've made and heard enough needle-drops (w/blind test picks) over the years using various equipment to confirm that accurate 16/44 captures (and playback) are possible .... esp using capable/transparent digital gear. That said, making a very high quality needle-drop is just as much of a synergistic process as putting together a complete system ... not nearly as easy as it may first appear.

If I was Continuum, I'd be more than a little concerned (perhaps even embarrassed) that it didn't stand out like a sore thumb.

tb1
 
Last edited:

Shaffer

New Member
Nov 2, 2012
583
3
0
NYS
I simply timed all the recordings with a stop watch and found one with a significantly different time. Nine of them had the same time to within a tenth of a second but cartridge test file #5 took a full second longer. Since I would expect the Caliburn to be spinning at the correct speed, I assumed the Traveler was spinning about 0.5% fast.

How did you contain the apparent excitement thought the process?
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing