How to grow the R2R catalogues??

NMMark1962

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Jun 29, 2013
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After watching the fantastic UHA Phase 11 review on Peter's site, I wonder what would be needed to get the major labels to start releasing material on R2R?? As a classical music geek, I am sure there are literally thousands of miles of tape in the vaults of London/Decca, Phillips, DG, EMI just to name a few....not to mention the same for jazz and rock....heck, even country...

Think about all of the great music recorded, starting in the 1950's and coming forward....and once again mentioning my classical music geekdom, there are many Decca/Culshaw/Solti/Wilkinson recordings that would be beyond belief on R2R...

Cheers,
 

NMMark1962

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Jun 29, 2013
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$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes, I am sure.....BUT, why not a concerted VOCAL and VISIBLE effort by the audiophile community and press to encourage the proliferation of tape use.....like, an ever increasing presence of tape decks at CES, RMAF, AXPONA, Munich High End...where the labels (assuming if they still care, of course) would see a growing market for tapes.....I would think and hope that an executive at one of the labels would see the growth (read, $$$) potential for tape and maybe, just maybe, get something going??? Or, release tapes to caring people/companies to remaster and release...I can think of about 6 or so recordings, if done properly, that would be beyond stunning on R2R (classical of course)...

Cheers,
 

Edward Pong

Industry Expert
Jun 24, 2013
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I agree with you Bruce.....$$$$$ & In my short experience with UltraAnalogue Recordings recording new classical chamber rep, a lot of tape bugs have asked me - "do you record jazz?" So with classical, the interest is even less...... But I totally agree with you - there would be some amazing tapes in the Decca & EMI vaults!
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Yes, I am sure.....BUT, why not a concerted VOCAL and VISIBLE effort by the audiophile community and press to encourage the proliferation of tape use.....like, an ever increasing presence of tape decks at CES, RMAF, AXPONA, Munich High End...where the labels (assuming if they still care, of course) would see a growing market for tapes.....I would think and hope that an executive at one of the labels would see the growth (read, $$$) potential for tape and maybe, just maybe, get something going??? Or, release tapes to caring people/companies to remaster and release...I can think of about 6 or so recordings, if done properly, that would be beyond stunning on R2R (classical of course)...

Cheers,

Greg Beron, more than anyone, has been on a scorched earth campaign contacting every record label. I'll leave it to him to answer but the short answer is that most major labels couldn't care less. Sadly, that's indicative of what the music industry has become eg. a bunch of bean counters.
 

hvbias

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Jun 22, 2012
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When I heard from a producer how much EMI and UMG wanted in licensing fees for jazz LP reissues my heart skipped a beat. I imagine companies are afraid to take the risk.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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When I heard from a producer how much EMI and UMG wanted in licensing fees for jazz LP reissues my heart skipped a beat. I imagine companies are afraid to take the risk.

Hell they don't want to take the risk for LPs so tape???? They have to be out of their mind.
 

hvbias

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Jun 22, 2012
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Hell they don't want to take the risk for LPs so tape???? They have to be out of their mind.

He has been reissuing LPs for a while, I never brought up tape with him. My comment was a general one; the licensing fees for small quantities from the major labels is not cheap.
 

NMMark1962

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I still find it hard to believe that UMG, with miles and miles of tape in their vaults would not be willing to risk a few releases to caring companies to simply test the waters. For goodness sakes, the Esoteric SACD limited release of the Decca/Solti Ring Cycle (at $800/each) sold like hotcakes at a church supper.....imagine what the response would have been with 5,000 copies at $300 or less....now, while I would shudder at the number of tapes needed for four titanic operas (no matter how stunning it would likely sound) as well as a horrendous price, but single tapes of a Brahms symphony or a few Mozart Quartets would be a killer litmus test. If I still had every CD I had bought since 1985 (I culled my library a few times) I would likely have over 3,000 CDs and a HUGE portion of those were Decca recordings...thus my firm belief that Decca alone could provide an incredible selection....sadly, Decca is a pale shell of what it used to be.....:(

Cheers,
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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I still find it hard to believe that UMG, with miles and miles of tape in their vaults would not be willing to risk a few releases to caring companies to simply test the waters. For goodness sakes, the Esoteric SACD limited release of the Decca/Solti Ring Cycle (at $800/each) sold like hotcakes at a church supper.....imagine what the response would have been with 5,000 copies at $300 or less....now, while I would shudder at the number of tapes needed for four titanic operas (no matter how stunning it would likely sound) as well as a horrendous price, but single tapes of a Brahms symphony or a few Mozart Quartets would be a killer litmus test. If I still had every CD I had bought since 1985 (I culled my library a few times) I would likely have over 3,000 CDs and a HUGE portion of those were Decca recordings...thus my firm belief that Decca alone could provide an incredible selection....sadly, Decca is a pale shell of what it used to be.....:(

Cheers,

#1-Record labels DON'T WANT to give out their irreplaceable master tapes and especially to anyone they don't know. See why Sterling, Gray, etc. master which LPs for Chad. Or why Grundman remastered the RCAs. Companies would much rather just send you a digital copy. Do you think the Beatles send out the original tapes? :( No you get some safety copy they created. And who knows the quality of that safety copy????

#2-Royalty fees.

#3-Record labels demand a ridiculous, no hideous amount of money up front.

As I stated before, the companies that present the best possibility for releasing tapes are those that own their own music eg. someone say like Opus 3 or Groove Note. Now too bad we could't get Proprius interested too!
 

Bruce B

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Apr 25, 2010
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The last I checked, was between $12k and $20k per title for 200 pieces. This was with UMG. Concord wanted about $8k - $12k
This is just for licensing fees. I've run the numbers every which way 'til Sunday and it's a losing deal for at least 5yr.
 

hvbias

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Jun 22, 2012
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I still find it hard to believe that UMG, with miles and miles of tape in their vaults would not be willing to risk a few releases to caring companies to simply test the waters. For goodness sakes, the Esoteric SACD limited release of the Decca/Solti Ring Cycle (at $800/each) sold like hotcakes at a church supper.....imagine what the response would have been with 5,000 copies at $300 or less....now, while I would shudder at the number of tapes needed for four titanic operas (no matter how stunning it would likely sound) as well as a horrendous price, but single tapes of a Brahms symphony or a few Mozart Quartets would be a killer litmus test. If I still had every CD I had bought since 1985 (I culled my library a few times) I would likely have over 3,000 CDs and a HUGE portion of those were Decca recordings...thus my firm belief that Decca alone could provide an incredible selection....sadly, Decca is a pale shell of what it used to be.....:(

Cheers,

Do you have the financial capability to start something like this? This isn't a sarcastic question, but a serious one. At some point it comes down to everyone talking about it, but noone wanting to take the initiative and/or risk.

SACD might even have a larger audience than vinyl (also those were hybrid SACDs so they will play on regular CD players and computers). So that's probably why one of the most legendary operas presented in a collectable fashion sold so well. It was also marketed only towards the Japanese, where there is a large classical/jazz fan base. I had to import mine from Stereo Sound Japan, none of the audiophile retailers in the US could get a copy of that box. At least the second pressing which was in a blue box.
 

Soundproof

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Jan 13, 2012
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It's a question of production efficiency.

LPs make sense, because you can make copies of the stampers at a brisk pace, once you have those in place.
High quality R-2-R requires 1:1 copying at normal speed, ideally. Setting up a copying bank, identifying a large enough customer base, securing distribution to it ... not going to happen. The making of the copies is too slow, and the volumes too small.
So we're stuck with bespoke production setups.

As illustration. I ordered a Tape Project tape last year, in February, and was promised delivery in April. This year, a couple of weeks ago, I was told that I could now get my copy ...
 

hvbias

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Jun 22, 2012
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The other thing I was reminded of is that EMI are archiving their master tapes to 32 bit, 192 khz. They don't want any more wear on those priceless master tapes. I imagine even future LP reissues pressed in the thousands will be taken from those high res digital files.

Decca has done it at 24/96. Those Japanese Esoteric SACDs were from their digitally archived files.
 

astrotoy

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In my research on the Decca book I am writing with Winston Ma (that a few of you know about), I interviewed quite a few of the Decca old timers in London last month. Concerning tapes, there were three interesting issues. Many are quite worn and not in a condition to be reproduced (this is true of at least some of the Solti Ring tapes). Second, they are in Hanover and not easily accessible to the remaining (very small) Decca staff in London. They are still being licensed to people like Winston. Third, depending on the vintage, some are equalized with a pre dolby A noise reduction called AME (Ampex Mastering Equalization) and not NAB. It requires a special box to decode those tapes.

I agree with all the comments made about the difficulty of duplication, let alone mastering like Paul Stubblebine does for the Tape Project tapes. Winston told me about a tape he was interested in mastering to CD, but Paul found that a part of the tape was so bad that they couldn't use it.

Larry
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Decca has done it at 24/96. Those Japanese Esoteric SACDs were from their digitally archived files.

Everything I've read says those were 24/48
 

LInks

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Jun 28, 2011
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Everything I've read says those were 24/48
That is true.
The last capture from the masters was done in 1997 and at 24/48.
That is what DECCA is using in it's Blu-ray 2012 presentation box.
Some fixes were done for the DECCA release using secondary takes, but the masters
have deteriorated too far to attempt another transfer.
 

Jazzbo

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Aug 20, 2012
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:)Good evening all,
While sitting in my church parking lot waiting for a meeting and breakfast to commence, I brought along some of our forum reading. Posts regarding the problem with some of the large music company's not producing reel to reel might have a lot to do with the fact there are not enough of us purchasing yet. Tape lovers may number in the hundreds which is small potatoes as far as the record company's are concern. Even if we numbered in the thousands, I don't think that would make a big difference. So, my hope is, we keep buying tapes from those bold enough to give us a goodly number of tapes in hopes more will be fourth coming. These small reel to reel businesses need our support for now and in the future in order to sustain themselves. Just my thoughts everyone. JazzboBob
 

Greg Beron / UHA

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Apr 5, 2012
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We need to make some noise!

Myles is correct, I have been doing everything I can to push commercially available Master Tape copies and R2R machines for the high end audio consumer for many years now. I can tell you that there has surely been progress.
I can also tell you that there will be companies I have "pushed" over the years to issue their library on Master Tape finally doing so in 2014.

The trick as I see it is to do some or all the following.

1.) To get more R2R machines in the hands of audiophiles.
2.) To get more companies to use a business model that works. Like maybe the smaller guys who record up and coming new artists to tape like Ed Pong of UltraAnalogue Recordings or Bob Attayah of Yarlung Records or Jonathan Horwich with International Phonograph, these guys need to be supported. We also need to get Jan-Eric with Opus3 recording again to tape! There are quite a few of similar small recording companies sitting on a bunch of Master Tapes and they need to be pushed to issue tapes, believe me I have contacted them. I have contacted some companies years ago and finally with the new tape movement gaining ground they are now interested, or more seriously considering getting into the tape business.
3.) The group of audiophiles that own decks will need to support the companies selling master tape copies with P-U-R-C-H-A-S-E-S! That is what makes things happen, the money.
4.) If we are true tape guys we need to stand up and start yelling about it! Contact the print magazines and the ezines and make some noise! Get behind those in the press that have heard R2R done right and support their coverage of R2R.
5.) If you see press coverage on R2R at the shows, or on web site reviews and there is the ability to comment on a blog, say something positive about tape! If Stereophile or TAS has 0 customer posts on show reports covering the little DAC thingeys and there are 40 or 50 posts on the R2R coverage there will be notice taken.
6.) We now have companies advertising Master Tape copies for sale in TAS and I can tell you that at CES the TAS guys recognize this effort and said so to me!

Just my 2 cents.

R2R TAS AD 2014.jpg
 

astrotoy

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May 24, 2010
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Myles is correct, I have been doing everything I can to push commercially available Master Tape copies and R2R machines for the high end audio consumer for many years now. I can tell you that there has surely been progress.
I can also tell you that there will be companies I have "pushed" over the years to issue their library on Master Tape finally doing so in 2014.

The trick as I see it is to do some or all the following.

1.) To get more R2R machines in the hands of audiophiles.
2.) To get more companies to use a business model that works. Like maybe the smaller guys who record up and coming new artists to tape like Ed Pong of UltraAnalogue Recordings or Bob Attayah of Yarlung Records or Jonathan Horwich with International Phonograph, these guys need to be supported. We also need to get Jan-Eric with Opus3 recording again to tape! There are quite a few of similar small recording companies sitting on a bunch of Master Tapes and they need to be pushed to issue tapes, believe me I have contacted them. I have contacted some companies years ago and finally with the new tape movement gaining ground they are now interested, or more seriously considering getting into the tape business.
3.) The group of audiophiles that own decks will need to support the companies selling master tape copies with P-U-R-C-H-A-S-E-S! That is what makes things happen, the money.
4.) If we are true tape guys we need to stand up and start yelling about it! Contact the print magazines and the ezines and make some noise! Get behind those in the press that have heard R2R done right and support their coverage of R2R.
5.) If you see press coverage on R2R at the shows, or on web site reviews and there is the ability to comment on a blog, say something positive about tape! If Stereophile or TAS has 0 customer posts on show reports covering the little DAC thingeys and there are 40 or 50 posts on the R2R coverage there will be notice taken.
6.) We now have companies advertising Master Tape copies for sale in TAS and I can tell you that at CES the TAS guys recognize this effort and said so to me!

Just my 2 cents.

View attachment 13717

Greg, thanks for all your efforts. Could you add our beloved Tape Project and Yarlung/Sonorus to your poster? I have bought most of the catalogues of the vendors you mentioned, except for Mastertapesoundlabs, which I will try (only have bought the classical and a couple of the folk from Opus3).

I also have been trying (as have a few others) to get the Electric Recording Company to release their albums from the early EMI recordings on 15ips R2R. Pete Hutchinson has the equipment to do it, however they are having significant issues with all the corporate changes in EMI - the classical side is now owned by Warners. The way I understand it is that their license is for vinyl releases, not tape and it would take a renegotiation of their contract, now with a new company, to get tape releases. Pete originally was able to get the EMI tapes (picked by his partner Dave Parsons of classicalvinyl.com who is very knowledgeable about early EMI and what is rare and good) because of his relationship with EMI on the pop side. This is where the dissolution of EMI into various parts causes major complications - EMI pop is now mainly with Universal while EMI classical is with Warners.

Larry
 

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