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Thread: iTunes or Looney Tunes? The great music server debate.

  1. #71
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    We are not talking about that topic in general. We are talking about them in the context of a PC being the source. It makes a difference.
    It doesn’t. Even in the context of a ‘PC'‘ implementations vary.

    This is the case of one test and one player. It has no bearing on all cases and those involving PCs.
    Do you really think I believe a n=1 case conclusive?
    Do you really think I can't tell the difference between a PC and a Blue-ray player?
    What I’m referring to is the believe in audiophile circles that Toslink sucks and Coax is so much better.

    PLLs are not a panacea.
    That is exactly why I use the word ‘reduce’ instead of 'eliminate'

    Please read the jitter debate thread where I showed that there is no published paper to give you comfort as far as audibility of jitter.
    As you can read on my website (http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/K...fectJitter.htm) I’m pretty aware that opinions about the audibility vary

  2. #72
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    Now you have me confused. I said to OP to try both links to see if he hears a difference. What was the point you were making? It sure sounded like you were saying the difference is too small to normally hear. That is what I challenged in the context of PC sources. Let me know your position first and then we can figure out if we should dig deeper.

  3. #73
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    My position is a very simple one.
    If you hang around to long on to many audio forums you simply start to wonder.
    All those tweaks, fanless, low power, memory playback,etc, etc. do they make a differences?
    Are the differences reported (blown away seems to be a minimum) real or are they audiophile differences?

    That’s why I’m delighted with the measurements of the Oppo.
    You can see the difference between running and stopped mode
    You can see the difference between Toslink and coax.
    For me this is the first time I see some measurements demonstrating the impact of electrical activity on jitter performance. Likewise Toslink – coax.

    Next: what do these measurements mean?
    Will they map into a audible difference?
    If I apply what I know to be the most severe (Julian Dunn, 20 ps ast 20.000) the difference is small but should be audible say between 18.000 and 20.000
    If we believe Rumsey & Watkinson (1995) anything below 10 ns goes.
    As delighted as I am with at least some measurements, how to interpreted them is another.

    Of course you can’t extrapolate the Oppo to a PC but at least this measurements probably show on a small scale what happens in a PC on a large scale (bit more clocks, motors, fans, etc)

    It is also eye opening to have both connected at once and switching between them and hearing a marked difference! Definitely makes the camp who thinks "digital is digital" think!
    Total agreement here.
    If you happen to have different digital connections, do compare them!
    I did compare Toslink and USB as both the PC (iMAC/Win7) and the DAC (Benchmark) do have USB and Toslink.
    Much to my surprise I do hear a differences (the DAC uses ASRC, supposed to eliminated all the input jitter) and in favour of Toslink

    Hope to be less unclear this time

    Vincent

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Kars View Post
    Hope to be less unclear this time

    Vincent
    Mission accomplished. Little worthwhile to add or critique .

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    I touched on the reasons why. PC typically has a horrible ground. It has a processor running at microwave frequencies pounding on it. It has untold number of clocks running, banging on the same rail. And of course, lots of RF radiation, all of which bleeds through that ground connection to your audio system. Some of these also act as jitter while others are analog interference screwing up reference circuits in your DAC, etc. So it is not surprising that optical which isolates this connection, helps a lot.

    Another solution if you have a pro card and DAC is to use AES balanced digital connection. Even here, you want to do an A/B to be sure you pick the one you like.
    Sorry Amir, I forgot mentioning this is happening while using my Oppo as a transport...

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by amirm View Post
    Tim, as I just described, there are lot more reasons for distortion other than jitter. I won't rehash everything discussed in the jitter thread either. I will say this though: you have a hypothesis that these two links sound the same. Why not go and see if you can prove it to yourself? Connect both to a PC and switch between them. Then come back and report what you heard. I have done this many times and the differences can be surprising. It shocked the hell out of me the first time I heard it as I wasn't prepared at all for what I heard. This doesn't mean I didn't have bias but it was an educational experience. I am suggesting you go to the same school .
    I've already compared optical and coax on my headphone system, where I have that option. The differences fall in the "I think I might hear..." range, slightly in favor of optical. This is consistent with my belief that jitter is practically inaudible, giving the slight edge of good galvanic isolation to optical. Of course implementations vary, but seriously, if there is a significant difference in favor of the connection capable of carrying the noise of the PC/transport, your other "reasons for distortion" to the DAC, are we not simply talking about poor implementation? Or perhaps a listener's preference for a bit of noise?

    I'm not trying to re-live the jitter debate, Amir, I am merely expressing my point of view in the broader dialogue. If it sometimes seems repetitious, my apologies. My only defense is that in the audiophile community, the pragmatic point of view is not broadly repetitious but actually quite rare compared to the views in support of audiophile digital cables, sonic differences between bit-identical files, DACs that charge a premium for reducing jitter that is already sufficiently reduced while connecting the analog system electrically to the noise of the digital system, and the superiority of, of all things, USB. If I seem to repeat myself it is only because there are so few, like Vincent, who speak my mind far better than I can speak it for myself. Expound upon the sonic virtues of a premium USB cable on many computer audio boards, and a few hundred heads will nod in unison. You would probably get more positive feedback from frozen cds than from suggesting that jitter is not really an issue in competently designed and executed gear.

    It's not easy being me.

    hmmm....I should probably sign this one,

    P
    In high-end audio, you can't even fight an opinion with the facts.

  7. #77
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    Expound upon the sonic virtues of a premium USB cable…
    I expect a lot of fun the oncoming years.
    A couple of USB audio class 2 DAC’s are now shipping and more to come.
    Class 2 runs on 480 MHz instead of 12 MHz (class 1)
    I expect a lot of these audiophile USB cables to fail the moment you use them for Class 2
    Their build quality is probably so poor they can’t cope with this higher bandwidth.
    Might also explain why they do have a sonic signature……

  8. #78
    Just to stir up an old debate a bit. Plugged in the iPhone to sync and recieved a reinstall iTunes message as it was missing files needed to start. The install is on WinXP machine which has been boringly stable. iTunes also had been well behaved on this machine only once in a while needing reminded that its library resided on NAS instead of locally.

    Up until today the closest thing I'd had to being an issue was that I needed to do iPhone OS updates on a Win 7 laptop with the DSL modem directly connected to prevent the update from timing out which is what happened on the XP box. Yes the laptop is faster but the XP box is still fast enough to keep up with DSL directly connected. Apple tech support has no idea why either. Just made the suggestion to try a different machine. But this strays rather OT.

    So is it Windows or iTunes that is squirrely here? Or is it because I'm mixing dogs and cats er Windows and Apple?
    Les

  9. #79
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    Smells like an iTunes problem. Windows wouldn't tell you to re-install iTunes.

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