Number of components to audition??

One of my mantras has always been, "let your ears and your wallet guide you"

NMMark1962 said:

Hello all..

I think I have let it known I am planning a very ambitious 2-channel system for late this year. I am wondering how many components are too many to audition. I know this may be a difficult question to answer and may approach some bizarre metaphysical process. For instance, the following amps/preamps are on my list: Analogue Domain, Boulder, Constellation, DarTZeel and Pass Labs...this makes 5 companies. Speakers?? Six brands....cables?? Six brands..

At what point do you approach a number that would force someone to loose track of what I would be auditioning?? Can one audition so many components that people loose track of what they truly like, what they sort of like and what they really do not like?? Would my keeping accurate notes of my experiences be enough, at the end of numerous listening sessions to the many components, to give me a concrete enough of an idea to make a purchase?? I know that the brick and mortar type dealers who will have the ultra gear have become few and far between. Also, I could go to Store A and hear a few of the components, but Store A only sells one brand of cables, which I really do not like (and yes, there are a few out there is simply despise). I could go to Store C and hear one component on the list but none of the others are familiar with....

In closing, I am worried that if I add more brands to my various component lists, I will have a list that becomes unmanageable and too difficult to be able to make an educated decision in the end. OR, am I worrying too much?? If I was simply ultra ultra wealthy, I would just buy it all and take my sweet time listening, selling off what I do not like. Then again, unpacking and repacking 600lb speakers and 195lb amps is not something I want to do on a frequent basis.....

Any thoughts are appreciated!!!!!

Cheers,

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3M


THe path you chose is a dangerous one. One fraugth with doubts, curves, hairpin curves, etc ... The number of combination with only the brands you provide is staggering. You may have to go with things you like at the outset. I am not of the philosophy[hy that electronics make the biggest difference. They do make a difference and certain combination of electronics and Speakers do not results in happy marriages, IMO. As for cables, I hope I will not raise a debate as I think their contribution to be minimal... IOW I don't sweat cables past electrical and mechanical adequacy IOW I would not use an 18 AWG for a 2 ohms speakers with an amp capable of 1000 watts ... That's me...

For such an assault on the Best, I would start with the room. There are many on this board who will provide great services on room building and/or treatment. I have no experience with him but I like his approach: Keith Yates. There is also Nyal Melior we corresponded briefly and his approach is to me extremely sound and interesting and its pricing sensible. And there is Ethan Winer and there are many others , I may have forgotten. You can talk to some people here whose rooms are stellar. A trip to these people systems would be warranted and won't cost you the price of some power cords and would allow you to audition their spectacular speakers I am citing in passing Steve Williams and Mike Lavigne and there are many others ... Just a matter of planning and these people are delightful hosts ..so

Then speakers. High on my list would be some usual suspects: Arrakis, Altair, Magico Q7 but one lone and interesting speaker which I have never heard but based on the results I am getting from its poor cousin I would seriously consider: The Kef Muon, the poor cousin is the surprisingly good Kef LS 50. I would also give the Genesis Junior 2 or is it 200? a good listen, they do things few other speakers do ... I like the concept of the MM7 too and would look at the Von Scweikert 9 and 11. I am not a big Wilson fan but the X-2 is a speaker one must listen to if one is going for that level, I could live happily with it for a very long time... I am by the way convinced that regardless of the bass capabilities of the main speakers (save for out of this world assault such as the Genesis 1.2 or the Acapella Sphaedron) the best bass in a room require subwoofers. You know my opinion about the Seaton Submersive which happen to be sensibly priced while being able to match or surpass most celebrated designs costing considerable more some times up to 7 or 8 times so ... The room must be built to at least match the speakers but ..yo figured that out already... If you like the Geneis Dragon , it wil likely not fit in a 15 x 12 x 10 ft room ...

Then I would work my way toward amplification. Making sure that the component matches electrically... IOW not using a LAMM 32 watts SET with a an 85 dB speaker in a large room. The Electronics you mention will work with any of these speakers to extract the best from them. Pass is interesting in term of bang for the bucks as it matches IMO offering costing several times more , again that's me ... There is out there again a wild card amplifier that will match most any amp on the market and that at a non ultra-high-end type of price: the Bryston 28B SST2 monos at $20K (no typo).. A listen to this superior amp is important ... I have never heard Analog Domain .. or Constellation but can't see how you would be wrong with Boulder or Dar Tzeel ... with most ANY speakers...

Once you know what speakers you really like .. The rest tends to fall in place. In my book based on what I have heard from smaller models (Q3 for Magico and Ankaa or Auila for Rockport) I would make sure I audition the Q7 and the Arrakis in the best possible way... Could simply be trips to members here...


Then you can eternalize on cables, accessories, cryogenics treatment and organic material for seating ... I din't post in this thread but my opinion of the use of only organic material in room treatment can only be summarized by this :

My $0.02

You raised a difficult problem. How to succeed in building a top audio system with minimal time and money waste, having little experience? My unique advice - do not trust blindly in advices given in audio forums, this one I have just written included.

I'm in the Frantz camp. Find a good room person, those mentioned by Frantz as well as Bryan Pape who has his own firm and works in conjunction with GIK Acoustics.

Then go visit some high end audio stores that are known for (a) carrying great products and (b) having the speakers set up correctly (most don't). And invite yourself to visit some of the individuals who have awesome systems that post at WBF.

Once you select a speaker, that will narrow down many of your other choices.

And I agree with Frantz: The cost of these visits will be much less than throwing your money away on some other "components" whose differences will be miniscule when compared to differences in speakers.

Have fun: I would love to be in a place where I could afford to go on your journey !!

Remember the woodworker's mantra "measure twice, cut once".

Before even thinking about auditioning components, you need to establish your sonic goals and budget. You need to understand how much effort you are willing to make prior to purchase and afterwards. Some of this may be guided by the type of music you prefer. Before even thinking about equipment, budget for a listening room worthy of the considerable expense you are contemplating and enough quality software to make the hardware investment worthwhile.

Rather than spit out the names of the usual equipment suspects (which you can find in abundance on any number of audio board), reconcile yourself to the fact you are never going to hear all of the possible permutations of equipment contenders in a controlled enviornment. Nor should you try, for this aspiration is the first symptom of that unhappy condition of 'audiophillius nervosa'. Fortunately, there is no absolute 'best' and there are likely a number of combinations that will fit in your budget and provide you with years of audio bliss.

Accept that yes, there may be some magic combination that sounds better than what you purchased. Indeed, in all likihood that will be the case. There is always someone smarter, better looking and richer than you. You are not alone and may have already noticed that most true audiophiles, regardless of the amount of time and effort already invested, are always contemplating that next equipment purchase. Evaluate each piece as if you were purchasing the last piece of equipment you will ever buy.

The only way to educate yourself is to audition a lot of equipment with familiar music. Take other's advice, especially mine, with a grain of salt. Many audiophiles feel the need to have others validate their choices. Hopefully you have cultivated experienced audiophile friends (or better yet experienced musicians) who are willing to share their experience and provide a 'sounding board' for decision making. If you find an equipment dealer that you trust and who understands and shares your sonic priorities by all means use them. While they are a vanishing breed, the good ones are worth their weight in gold.

Good luck on your journey.

One approach might be to find a dealer that lets you try things at home. My shop does that all the time with our high-end gear. Get the speaker first and power it with whatever electronics you already have. Even a mass market AVR would be fine to see what the speaker does in your listening space. If it doesn't sound good that way, it is probably not a great speaker! Then swap out the AVR with an amp. Then walk up the chain one at a time so you are always in a situation of being able to perform an AB.

amirm said:

one approach might be to find a dealer that lets you try things at home. My shop does that all the time with our high-end gear. get the speaker first and power it with whatever electronics you already have. Even a mass market avr would be fine to see what the speaker does in your listening space. If it doesn't sound good that way, it is probably not a great speaker! then swap out the avr with an amp. Then walk up the chain one at a time so you are always in a situation of being able to perform an ab.

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Big +1

GaryProtein said:

Big +1

Click to expand...

same here +2

NMMark1962 said:

Excellent points,

I think I can chime in some more here.....

Sonic Goals: first and foremost, I am a classical music fiend, nerd, geek, devotee....pure and simple I love the whole 900 years of the music called "classical"...though that is a pretty general term. Anyway, I grew up listening to classical and by the time I graduated college in 1984 I had already developed a serious passion for the sound of London/Decca LPs and then, CD's....same for Phillips....I did not care then for DG or other classical labels, though EMI had some pretty good ones

I have a great deal of exposure to live classical, hearing orchestras in Vienna, New York, Chicago...as well as world class orchestras on tour.....Decca LPs and CD's (especially those by Wilkie) still sound fantastic, even 30 years or more after they were recorded. For over 30 years I played trumpet in orchestras and community bands, so I have a pretty good idea as to what string, woodwind and brass instruments are supposed to sound like.

Thus, I like accurate and natural recordings and systems that deliver it. I have had plenty of experience hearing good to superb audio gear...I could very likely duplicate a system that I heard a few years ago: Boulder's 2050 amps, 2010 preamp, Accuphase DP-101/DC-100 SACD transport/DAC, Focal Nova Utopia Be speakers and all Tara Labs reference cabling. That system played music at a level I have never heard. One night I was playing a CD of the uber famous Solti/Culshaw/Vienna/Decca recording of Wagner's Ring opera, Götterdämmerung. There is a scene towards the end where the hero is stabbed and instead of dying, he sings. The music is called "Siegfried's Funeral Music" and when the music starts before the famous interlude, Siegfried sings his farewell.....I freaked out as I swear I was sitting in the Sofiensaal in Vienna, 1964 with Sir Georg about 10' in front of me with the Vienna Phil right there....Wolfgang Windgassen (our Siegfried) was about 25' away and on the platform where Decca placed all the soloists.....It was frigging SPOOKY!!!

So, I know EXACTLY what I want and I have heard the gear that will give it to me.....thus my query because of some recommendations to consider other brands.

At RMAF I will get a chance to have a private audition at the Boulder factory to hear the 3050's and either the 2010 preamplifier or, if it is ready, the new 2110 preamplifier....with Focal Grande Utopia EM speakers. The source will likely be Boulder's DAC playing DSD files....

By the time I build my system late this year, Boulder will have retired the 2000 Series and be out with their new 2100 Series. Focal has their new Focal Utopia III speakers and Accuphase has the DP-901/DC-900 SACD transport/DAC...If that system blows me away (and I do not concur with many of the negative comments I have read about Boulder) would I be doing myself a serious disservice by ending the audition process there and purchase at least the amp/preamp/speakers and then spend some time auditioning a digital front end?? Maybe the Accuphase kit, or the dCS Vivaldi, or a CH Precision SACD player, or Orpheus Labs SACD players, or Playback Designs MPS-5??

RMAF 2013 will be a rather seminal point in my audio journey, as I could scratch a number of brands off of my list, right there in Denver. Two of the other speakers I am interested in, MBL and Rockport, will be represented and if I am gaga enough about them, I will make an effort to do more listening post RMAF. The big Evolution Acoustics will be heard during a visit with WBF's own Mike Lavigne. Finally, a trip back to Austin to hear Rockport (if I am still high on what I heard at RMAF). A trip to my future dealer in Miami will let me hear the Boulder 3050 with the Wilson XLF's, dCS and Transparent....so really, if I stick to a basic list of gear I can complete an audition circuit that should result in a great system...by Miami, I will have heard enough to stop the process and start the purchases.....

Cheers,

Click to expand...

I think you are on the right track. If it won't interfere with your visit, look me up when you visit Mike L's, I'd love to meet (and pick your brain about classical music recommendations).

Sounds like you re getting a nice system since you do a lot of "" homework "" , still i think since you like classical music a tube poweramp would be blast , best classical i heard was with Octave jubilee amps , off course boulder is not bad either
Would work fine with Xlf s i reckon, maybe not so much with rockport

NMMark1962 said:

You are on!!!! Be careful what you ask for...hehehehehe

Cheers,

Click to expand...

Should be fun...I suspect you will like the MM7's. Hope to see you at RMAF.

Good luck.

NMMark1962 said:

Excellent points,

I think I can chime in some more here.....

Sonic Goals: first and foremost, I am a classical music fiend, nerd, geek, devotee....pure and simple I love the whole 900 years of the music called "classical"...though that is a pretty general term. Anyway, I grew up listening to classical and by the time I graduated college in 1984 I had already developed a serious passion for the sound of London/Decca LPs and then, CD's....same for Phillips....I did not care then for DG or other classical labels, though EMI had some pretty good ones

I have a great deal of exposure to live classical, hearing orchestras in Vienna, New York, Chicago...as well as world class orchestras on tour.....Decca LPs and CD's (especially those by Wilkie) still sound fantastic, even 30 years or more after they were recorded. For over 30 years I played trumpet in orchestras and community bands, so I have a pretty good idea as to what string, woodwind and brass instruments are supposed to sound like.

Thus, I like accurate and natural recordings and systems that deliver it. I have had plenty of experience hearing good to superb audio gear...I could very likely duplicate a system that I heard a few years ago: Boulder's 2050 amps, 2010 preamp, Accuphase DP-101/DC-100 SACD transport/DAC, Focal Nova Utopia Be speakers and all Tara Labs reference cabling. That system played music at a level I have never heard. One night I was playing a CD of the uber famous Solti/Culshaw/Vienna/Decca recording of Wagner's Ring opera, Götterdämmerung. There is a scene towards the end where the hero is stabbed and instead of dying, he sings. The music is called "Siegfried's Funeral Music" and when the music starts before the famous interlude, Siegfried sings his farewell.....I freaked out as I swear I was sitting in the Sofiensaal in Vienna, 1964 with Sir Georg about 10' in front of me with the Vienna Phil right there....Wolfgang Windgassen (our Siegfried) was about 25' away and on the platform where Decca placed all the soloists.....It was frigging SPOOKY!!!

So, I know EXACTLY what I want and I have heard the gear that will give it to me.....thus my query because of some recommendations to consider other brands.

At RMAF I will get a chance to have a private audition at the Boulder factory to hear the 3050's and either the 2010 preamplifier or, if it is ready, the new 2110 preamplifier....with Focal Grande Utopia EM speakers. The source will likely be Boulder's DAC playing DSD files....

By the time I build my system late this year, Boulder will have retired the 2000 Series and be out with their new 2100 Series. Focal has their new Focal Utopia III speakers and Accuphase has the DP-901/DC-900 SACD transport/DAC...If that system blows me away (and I do not concur with many of the negative comments I have read about Boulder) would I be doing myself a serious disservice by ending the audition process there and purchase at least the amp/preamp/speakers and then spend some time auditioning a digital front end?? Maybe the Accuphase kit, or the dCS Vivaldi, or a CH Precision SACD player, or Orpheus Labs SACD players, or Playback Designs MPS-5??

RMAF 2013 will be a rather seminal point in my audio journey, as I could scratch a number of brands off of my list, right there in Denver. Two of the other speakers I am interested in, MBL and Rockport, will be represented and if I am gaga enough about them, I will make an effort to do more listening post RMAF. The big Evolution Acoustics will be heard during a visit with WBF's own Mike Lavigne. Finally, a trip back to Austin to hear Rockport (if I am still high on what I heard at RMAF). A trip to my future dealer in Miami will let me hear the Boulder 3050 with the Wilson XLF's, dCS and Transparent....so really, if I stick to a basic list of gear I can complete an audition circuit that should result in a great system...by Miami, I will have heard enough to stop the process and start the purchases.....

Cheers,

Click to expand...

For this sort of unamplified music I'd urge you to hear exceptional horns and electrostats along with the box speakers you've mentioned in your first post. For the former I think many of the companies are German or at least European based. It's unfortunate that it's tricky since a lot of solutions are also custom built towards a users room.

Boulder with anything really , i meant tubes on the arrakis would get quite expensive , the last time i saw a pic they were bi amped with 2 big VTL s, i assume they are quite current hungry

NMMark1962 said:

Wait....the tube amp for the XLFs or Boulder for the Rockport....or, a tube amp for the Rockport and the Boulder for the XLF's???....sorry, but it is past my bed time..YAWN

Cheers

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Speakers -- I don't care how good the room person is, unless you like a really dead room (and I don't think they sound very good), I think you need to try to find a speaker thats off-axis response very closely resembles its on-axis response, so reflected sound is at least in the same ball park as direct sound. I'm not sure exactly how you do that, given that most manufacturers don't publish such measurements and almost no reviewers pay any attention to off-axis response. Beyond that, buy what you like; speakers are the right place to choose your color because they're going to be colored no matter what you choose.

Oh hell, just buy the Revel Salon whatever number they're up to, and a good digital eq and dial in your preferred euphony. Dr. Olive has already done all this work for you.

Amps? There are more than a couple of people here who will disagree with this, but I'm of the opinion that if two amps with more than sufficient power for the load sound signigicantly different, one of them is Wrong; capital W. Assuming that amps in the high ranges you're talking about are, at least, going to do an adequate job of driving the speakers, the differences between them should be small enough that I don't know how you can make a call between them without having them in your system where you can readily switch back and forth between them and closelly compare them in context. Personally I'd pick my speakers, then look at the universe of amps of robust build quality with way more headroom than I need, buy the least expensive of the lot, and put the rest of the money into new music.

That's probably not very helpful.

Tim