Room treatments....natural or commercial??

as they say, "caveat emptor"

While not yet totally predictable, acoustics is no longer the black art it used to be. There are many fascinating materials on the market today made of synthetics whose individual acoustic properties in terms of absorption coefficients, diffraction properties are backed up by solid numbers. You've got everything from fabrics, fibers, labyrinth panels, sintered metals and even clear coatings that go on glass. Maybe Pascal is just into all things organic? Heehee!

That said, I have come across quite a few "self taught" acousticians whose work has been horrible with horrible products to match.

If you look at Steve's room and my own, you'll see two different interior design approaches that have treatments more or less hidden. You don't have to go with a forest of traps or have prefabricated panels hung all over the place because choices are abundant. Many gorgeous diffusers as well that look like custom moldings. To avoid the cluttered look however, you will need the greater majority of the treatments built in and clad tastefully. It would help if your acoustician is accustomed to working with architects and interior designers. The availability of new materials has really helped the WAF conscious audio enthusiast. For example Steve uses a microfiber material called Lumitex and I used a sintered metal called Almute. I mentioned a clear film (made by RPG) so you can even treat window AND still see through them perfectly fine. It's just a matter of getting the goals set, getting the math right and executing properly.

The goal of commercial companies is obviously to sell you maximum number of acoustic products. So on that front he is right. But some of the rest is kind of strange. For example, if you want to put absorption anywhere, it needs to be thick enough to be broadband. This usually means 4+ inches thick. As such, you never want to line anything with just fabric. Furnishings and natural material do work as a replacement for purpose built devices. But they are not better in sound performance. They are better since they look nicer in multi-purpose rooms.

NMMark1962 said:

Thanks to both of you!!!! The one commercially available item is truly do not like, though I am sure they work wonders, are tube traps. I have seen rooms with a forest of these things and bloody heck, the room looks awful (IMHO).....there has to to be a way to meld the high tech products with what I will call "old world charm"...no, I do not want my room to look like a funeral home or an old English pub (Sir, would you like a pint to go along with your Elgar??) but also, not like a recording studio....

Cheers,

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JackD201 said:

If you look at Steve's room and my own, you'll see two different interior design approaches that have treatments more or less hidden. You don't have to go with a forest of traps or have prefabricated panels hung all over the place because choices are abundant. Many gorgeous diffusers as well that look like custom moldings. To avoid the cluttered look however, you will need the greater majority of the treatments built in and clad tastefully. It would help if your acoustician is accustomed to working with architects and interior designers. The availability of new materials has really helped the WAF conscious audio enthusiast. For example Steve uses a microfiber material called Lumitex and I used a sintered metal called Almute. I mentioned a clear film (made by RPG) so you can even treat window AND still see through them perfectly fine. It's just a matter of getting the goals set, getting the math right and executing properly.

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Here's a write up of mine. Everything is hidden.....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Steve-Williams&p=191656&viewfull=1#post191656

And here is what I posted re an acoustician I selected...

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...oustician-Have&p=172746&viewfull=1#post172746

JackD201 said:

If you look at Steve's room and my own, you'll see two different interior design approaches that have treatments more or less hidden. You don't have to go with a forest of traps or have prefabricated panels hung all over the place because choices are abundant. Many gorgeous diffusers as well that look like custom moldings. To avoid the cluttered look however, you will need the greater majority of the treatments built in and clad tastefully. It would help if your acoustician is accustomed to working with architects and interior designers. The availability of new materials has really helped the WAF conscious audio enthusiast. For example Steve uses a microfiber material called Lumitex and I used a sintered metal called Almute. I mentioned a clear film (made by RPG) so you can even treat window AND still see through them perfectly fine. It's just a matter of getting the goals set, getting the math right and executing properly.

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+1.

I've tweaked my already designed room over the years with relatively inexpensive added diffusers. the RPG Skylines in between my speakers and the Auralex T-Fusors on the side walls and ceiling wells. I have less than $2000 total investment in all those diffusers.

I could have spent 5x or 10x that and got beautiful wood diffusers that would more blend with my aesthetics (I got one bid of $17k for some nice wood RPG Flutterfree), and maybe some day I will. but for now i'm happy with the result and I live with a bit of aesthetic compromise in my dedicated room.

Mike Lavigne said:

+1.

I've tweaked my already designed room over the years with relatively inexpensive added diffusers. the RPG Skylines in between my speakers and the Auralex T-Fusors on the side walls and ceiling wells. I have less than $2000 total investment in all those diffusers.

I could have spent 5x or 10x that and got beautiful wood diffusers that would more blend with my aesthetics (I got one bid of $17k for some nice wood RPG Flutterfree), and maybe some day I will. but for now i'm happy with the result and I live with a bit of aesthetic compromise in my dedicated room.

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Mike your room is gorgeous. I noticed no aesthetics compromises.

JackD201 said:

If you look at Steve's room and my own, you'll see two different interior design approaches that have treatments more or less hidden.

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That can be taken to extreme where it appears that you have no treatments at all. Here is our home theater at work:



We put LED lights behind the stretched panels to show what is there. When we turn them on (image on the right), the jaws drop because people think there is nothing there. For movies, it is important to have them disappear as to get absorbed into the experience. Otherwise bright scenes light up the panels and cause distraction. Hence the full stretched fabric treatment. The fabric does act as another absorber so for 2-channel listening, you don't want to cover so much surface area with them.

amirm said:

Mike your room is gorgeous. I noticed no aesthetics compromises.

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thanks Amir, I appreciate that.

the added diffusers don't look terrible. but if they were hardwood they would look more designed in and coherent instead of simply 'added on'. so maybe it's just me and the type of thing that one is aware of living in the space.

the design approach of my room was not to hide the built-in treatments. that was not important to me, yet having as good a looking space as is practical to have was and is important.

I do particularly like the subdued 'sleek' look of Jack's room which is a completely different look than my room.

Mike Lavigne said:

(...) the added diffusers don't look terrible. but if they were hardwood they would look more designed in and coherent instead of simply 'added on'. so maybe it's just me and the type of thing that one is aware of living in the space.

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Mike,
I have followed your room since you posted its design and building in Positive Feedback issue 16 long ago - your room looks gorgeous and comfortable. But I understand you - the day you will replace the added diffusers with nice wood one's will be a great day!

An essay Mike wrote many years ago titled "The Room is it" or something like that was what got me hell bent on going the "from the ground up" route. Mike rarely shows pics of his ceiling which is really, really nice too. We were supposed to renovate the house that was standing that we had bought but in the end we tore it down to build a whole new one based around the basement music room. Arthurs room in Texas was one of the rooms that I really liked too. In particular, the way he hid or camouflaged his treatments and applied lighting.

Amir's showroom is gorgeous. Being a geek I love seeing the room "nekkid" albeit it really wouldn't work in use as amir said due to light reflecting off the gorgeous diffusers. Now there's Stereo's room in Taiwan, all exposed, all gorgeous too. I love Steve's new color palette. Very relaxing and the drapes give a feeling of "staying in" or "playing hookie". The painting in the middle is a great touch. JohnFo's is another room that is helluva cool with his lighted panels echoing the curves of his Logan stats.

Mike L Mark. There is a section here that shows just that. Member's Gallery.

JackD201 said:

Mike L Mark. There is a section here that shows just that. Member's Gallery.

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sorry; since my room is fully documented on Audiogon here;

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020&read&3&zzlMikelavigne&&

.....I've not taken the time to document it here on WBF in the Member's Gallery. so other than pics here and there such as my MM7 or dart 458 thread, Audiogon is where all the details of my room are best seen at this point.

Exposure to a number of overdamped windowless sonic bunkers let me to believe that all sound treatments were undesirable as these spaces always made me feel disorientated and acutely aware of my body’s fluid dynamics.

When I built my speakers into the structure of my 1920s solid brick and mortar home, I enlarged all windows, albeit with horrendously expensive sound proof glass giving a splendid but quiet view of the garden. Curtains were not even considered as I believed furnishings and bookcases would be more than adequate. That was until the first notes were played. Whilst there was no echo or overtly bright sounds what was immediately apparent was that although the back wall was some 35 feet from the speakers, the horns were acting as perfect projectors creating a marvellous 3D picture at the opposite end of the speakers! Thick acoustic blinds and curtains were fitted to tame this. The sound was good as were the measurements and as horns are controlled dispersion devices side wall treatment was surely not necessary?

Problem was that the rear wall was still playing subtle tricks. There were still reflections from there that no amount of carpets, bookcases or wine racks could control. These reflections would be thrown straight back at the horns where the horn would then act as an concentrator ,for those same waves to be reflected and re amplified in a never ending cycle.

Grudgingly some room treatments were brought in to tame the back wall. Stripping the room and rebuilding to hide these was as impossible as a number of aesthetically challenged free standing screens, so compromises had to be made. Probably less than the actually needed panels were installed but so large was the improvement that many other surfaces also were treated allowing some furnishings to actually be removed and leading to what I believe is visually a more harmonious space. My firm belief that horns do not need for sidewall reflections to be damped was destroyed by a short session although these need to be at slightly different positions than with conventional speakers.

Have I done enough? No but we still need to live, laugh and eat in this space.

FWIW, I don't have a dedicated room; my system sits smack in the middle of the house. It's a big, open space with all the usual pitfalls, including a wife who doesn't want a living room that looks like ...well ...you know. I chose products from GIK Acoustics, namely their 242 panels and their Monster Bass Traps. My wife was able to choose the fabric to suit her expectations and the change in sound was remarkable.

amirm said:

The goal of commercial companies is obviously to sell you maximum number of acoustic products.

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As a manufacturer and seller of acoustic products I have to say this is very unfair. Just as it's unfair to say that all loudspeaker and receiver companies want to sell only their most expensive models. Or for audio dealers that are not manufacturers but only re-sell products. Or for companies that sell several levels of complete built-in audio systems. Yes, everybody who sells stuff is in business to make money. But a good company will work with you and get you the best value based on your available budget. It's not fair to single out acoustic product vendors as being more greedy than anyone else.

However, I do agree with the sentiment that many acoustic vendors are incompetent. Acoustic products are relatively low-tech, and the cost to start a business is low. Compared to designing a full-on receiver with HDMI switching and AM/FM tuners where you really have to know what you're doing for the product to work at all. Then again, I've seen incompetence in other product categories such as loudspeakers and power amps.

--Ethan