Tube gear obsolete??

LL21 · Jun 23, 2013

lloydelee21 said:
Its a funny thing about equipment and reliability...I have owned both SS and Tubes like many of us here. The only times I've ever had big repair bills and 'unfindable' problems...have been with SS equipment! (I had an amp that had old capacitors/resistors that were crackling that no one could find for the first 5 repairs over the course of 12+ months. My Velodyne also blew 3 fuses in a row before being fixed by the Distributor here.)

Fingers crossed, none of my 4 CJ pieces in 15 years has ever needed a repair. Same with Zanden over last 5+ years. As for tubes and hiss, yes, I have had a few noisy tubes, but fortunately Zanden has been fine for a number of years...and I have found some solid tubes for CJ so no noise or crackle there either. Fingers crossed!!!!

DaveyF said:
Lloyd, interesting post. I haven't been as lucky as you with tubes. My first tube amp...a Melos, blew a tube and a board after I inserted the latest highly touted Chinese KT88's into it. I have also had numerous examples of tubes going noisy in one way or another. My point is that one never really knows when one is going to have a problem with tubes...in other words you have to have your "fingers crossed". For some reason, I don't have this "paranoia" with ss gear. OTOH, I do believe that this "paranoia" is far more of a factor for me in a tube amp than in a tube preamp.

Believe it or not...I actually 'keep my fingers crossed' on my SS equipment! It is also more difficult to fix since some of the elements cannot be so easily fixed by a good audiotech since the audiotech said he cannot access/fix them without the right diagnostic software which only the manufacturer has...and thus it needs to be sent back to the manufacturer. Whereas the tubed equipment is more easily fixed by a good audiotech. fingers crossed!

DaveyF · Jun 23, 2013

lloydelee21 said:
Believe it or not...I actually 'keep my fingers crossed' on my SS equipment! It is also more difficult to fix since some of the elements cannot be so easily fixed by a good audiotech since the audiotech said he cannot access/fix them without the right diagnostic software which only the manufacturer has...and thus it needs to be sent back to the manufacturer. Whereas the tubed equipment is more easily fixed by a good audiotech. fingers crossed!

That's interesting, Lloyd. I get your point, it's true that all gear has to be serviced, etc. OTOH, I would be willing to bet that tube gear is FAR more prone to issues than ss gear. I think the temperatures involved in most tube gear is one of the main factor's in their reliability and the quality and construction of the tube itself is another major factor. For some reason, tubes do NOT seem to be as well made as in the past ( I'm not sure why this has to be the case, but it sure seems that way).

rockitman · Jun 23, 2013

How much does it cost to roll a big tube amp with the best Nos tubes ? thousands I would imagine. How often do tubes need to be replaced in tube power amps ? Every 2 years for daily use or sooner ?

puroagave · Jun 23, 2013

rockitman said:
How much does it cost to roll a big tube amp with the best Nos tubes ? thousands I would imagine. How often do tubes need to be replaced in tube power amps ? Every 2 years for daily use or sooner ?

new production power tubes are really good nowadays and dont cost an arm and a leg. theres lots of hype surrounding this NOS tube vs. that NOS tube. to these ears, the majority of the time its a waste unless its a critcal small signal tube and then i still go with newer tubes provided they test well. like anything else in this hobby you can $pend a lot but it doesnt necessarily make it better.

Steve Williams · Jun 23, 2013

rockitman said:
How much does it cost to roll a big tube amp with the best Nos tubes ? thousands I would imagine. How often do tubes need to be replaced in tube power amps ? Every 2 years for daily use or sooner ?

I only roll one pair of tubes in my ML3 Signature and that is the 12AX7 where I have the Holy Grail, the famed ECC803S. Truth be told this tube will last easily 10,000 hours

AS for replacing tubes, it depends on system use but again the need to retube based on hours of tube use is sometimes unnecessary as these tubes last one very long time. I have retubed my present amp for the first time in almost 3 years. Most expensive tube was the GM-70

Steve Williams · Jun 23, 2013

NOS tubes can be expensive however for me I just roll the 12AX7 on my amp. So far I don't roll tubes in my preamp and only this past week was I able to find 2 pair (a brand new matching quad set) of the Holy Grail of 12AT7 tubes (ECC801S) for my Doshi tape head preamp which arrives this week with Nick to set it up. These were not cheap however I am hoping they'll last a lifetime

LL21 · Jun 23, 2013

DaveyF said:
That's interesting, Lloyd. I get your point, it's true that all gear has to be serviced, etc. OTOH, I would be willing to bet that tube gear is FAR more prone to issues than ss gear. I think the temperatures involved in most tube gear is one of the main factor's in their reliability and the quality and construction of the tube itself is another major factor. For some reason, tubes do NOT seem to be as well made as in the past ( I'm not sure why this has to be the case, but it sure seems that way).

Well, in fairness, i think i have had some bad experiences with SS equipment (really one bad amp spoiled the whole barrel!

)...but i can understand why people have long said SS is far more reliable long-term.

KeithR · Jun 24, 2013

The fact there is a debate in this thread means the debate isn't over.

That said, I think debate is pointless as there are good and poor examples of both tube and SS. I have had an 8k, well-known brand, SS stereo amplifier in for evaluation over the past few days--it sounds nothing like tubes. So what does that mean? Not much really. SS people love to talk about bass, but never mention mids---tube people usually talk about vocals, but never talk about dynamics. Super high-powered tubes generally sound like crap IMO and SS is much harder to get good sound from on a regular basis.

What's more important (to me) is having a speaker that can be able to use both--this is why MBLs, YGs, etc will never be on my shopping list. If it can't be driven by 75-100 watts, it's not going to be in my living room.

mep · Jun 24, 2013

KeithR said:
The fact there is a debate in this thread means the debate isn't over.

That said, I think debate is pointless as there are good and poor examples of both tube and SS. I have had an 8k, well-known brand, SS stereo amplifier in for evaluation over the past few days--it sounds nothing like tubes. So what does that mean? Not much really. SS people love to talk about bass, but never mention mids---tube people usually talk about vocals, but never talk about dynamics. Super high-powered tubes generally sound like crap IMO and SS is much harder to get good sound from on a regular basis.

What's more important (to me) is having a speaker that can be able to use both--this is why MBLs, YGs, etc will never be on my shopping list. If it can't be driven by 75-100 watts, it's not going to be in my living room.

I understand that position, but that doesn't mean it's *right*.

KeithR · Jun 24, 2013

mep said:
I understand that position, but that doesn't mean it's *right*.

Mark- come to the high efficiency dark side

In all seriousness, it's a much more interesting place to be. Pick up a used pair of Zu Superflys on the cheap and have some fun!

c1ferrari · Jun 24, 2013

rockitman said:
How often do tubes need to be replaced in tube power amps ? Every 2 years for daily use or sooner ?

Pertaining to BAT VK-150SE monoblocks, my experience indicates, annually, for the 6C33C's.

c1ferrari · Jun 24, 2013

KeithR said:
What's more important (to me) is having a speaker that can be able to use both--this is why MBLs, YGs, etc will never be on my shopping list. If it can't be driven by 75-100 watts, it's not going to be in my living room.

Interesting...

DaveyF · Jun 24, 2013

c1ferrari said:
Pertaining to BAT VK-150SE monoblocks, my experience indicates, annually, for the 6C33C's.

Sam, that seems like a short life for the 6C33C's. Are you leaving your amps on 24/7?

c1ferrari · Jun 24, 2013

DaveyF said:
Sam, that seems like a short life for the 6C33C's. Are you leaving your amps on 24/7?

Each monoblock runs 500 volt-amps @ idle...I have four of them

No way would I leave them on 24/7, albeit we enjoy a wonderful AC system

One can, indeed, replace the 6C33's at greater intervals; however, there is a sonic consequence.

MadFloyd · Jun 25, 2013

What's the sign that output tubes need to be replaced? Something audible or is it more like they aren't holding their voltage (e.g. bias slips often).

I'm still 'new' to tube amps and am wondering...

MylesBAstor · Jun 25, 2013

MadFloyd said:
What's the sign that output tubes need to be replaced? Something audible or is it more like they aren't holding their voltage (e.g. bias slips often).

I'm still 'new' to tube amps and am wondering...

Not being able to bias a tube (s). Blowing a protective fuse. Seeing a tube go cherry red. Loss of dynamics. Sometimes you can ever detect a tube going as a channel imbalance. With the current crop of 6550, I'd say one would be lucky to get 1500-2000 hrs max out of them. I usually start being overly paranoid when they're around 1000 hrs and keep a closer eye on biasing. Of course that's my experience with cj gear and tube life will also be dependent upon how hard the tubes are being driven.

microstrip · Jun 25, 2013

MadFloyd said:
What's the sign that output tubes need to be replaced? Something audible or is it more like they aren't holding their voltage (e.g. bias slips often).

I'm still 'new' to tube amps and am wondering...

Get a tube tester - even a cheap DIY model made specifically just to the power tubes you use - that measures plate current and transconductance. Record the values when you get the tubes, after 100 and 200 hours use and then every 500 hours. Watch for parameter variations. Although different tubes can have different aging patterns, you will soon get a feeling of when you should replace them.

MadFloyd · Jun 25, 2013

Thanks for the responses. I'll look into getting a tube tester.

DaveyF · Jun 26, 2013

c1ferrari said:
Each monoblock runs 500 volt-amps @ idle...I have four of them
No way would I leave them on 24/7, albeit we enjoy a wonderful AC system
One can, indeed, replace the 6C33's at greater intervals; however, there is a sonic consequence.

Sam, I'm a little shocked that the 6c33's don't have a longer life in your BAT amps. I guess Viktor is running them pretty hard. I do know that whenever I have heard the bigger BAT's I always thought they
would make excellent space heaters..

c1ferrari · Jun 26, 2013

DaveyF said:
Sam, I'm a little shocked that the 6c33's don't have a longer life in your BAT amps. I guess Viktor is running them pretty hard. I do know that whenever I have heard the bigger BAT's I always thought they
would make excellent space heaters..

Hi Davey!

Actually, Victor derates the tubes for less stressful operation...it's just that I desire optimum performance and therefore, exchange the power output tubes more frequently to maintain it. Four BAT 150SE's will raise your temperature

Tube gear obsolete??

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