Tube gear obsolete??

As far as SS has improved (and it really, really has...Gryphon, Vitus, Constellation, D'Agostino, Robert Koda), I also believe that tubed equipment has also improved. At the same rate? No idea...but tubed equipment that I own now is extremely quiet, tonally pure without the excess of 'hue', extremely detailed, and propulsive in the bass. CJ is a good example of how far tubed equipment has come, and my own experience with them goes back only about 15 years. And so too are the latest from Zanden, Lamm, ARC, Shindo (119db signal to noise?), and Kondo/Audio Note.

Pheasant or Quail

Pheasant or Quail
They will always be different.
It is a matter of taste & equipment synergy.
zz

zztop7 said:

Pheasant or Quail
They will always be different.
It is a matter of taste & equipment synergy.
zz

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Tubes have been officially pronounced dead for 50 years. Unfortunately (or fortunately), no one told audiophiles. Kind of like Sound and Vision that pronounced analog dead in 1980 and is now trying to resurrect itself with turntable reviews.

DaveyF said:

Last night while listening to my classic ARC D70Mk2 tube amp and Tube CAT preamp, a thought occurred to me. In some ways tubes are a PITA....LOL As we all know, tubes give off considerable heat, are sometimes difficult to source, can be costly to replace, are prone to numerous failure issues (more than ss) are subject to various construction variables and on and on. OTOH, for me they produce a sound that at the moment most -and perhaps all, ss misses. However, at the rate of improvement that ss gear seems to be enjoying, I wonder how long it will be before owning tube gear is simply not of any benefit whatsoever over its ss competition. Or, is this wishful thinking and ss gear will never match its tube competition.
Ok, let's hear it from the tube camp and the ss camp.

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Class A SS is the best of both worlds. Takes the best of tubes mids and highs and the best of class a/b SS for Bass. Class A/B SS has tighter bass than Class A SS and Class A SS has tighter bass than tubes. I would never own a Tube power amp. too much care and feeding. Pre's and Phono/Tape stages with tubes I am still open too.

I could be happy with both , if boulder is the SS option , i agree with the tube power amps , however if one has a high eff speaker , the number of powertubes is decreased considerable so are cost maintenance /heat.
There are things high quality SS just cant , tubepoweramps give more roomfill /are more voluptuous in the bass and more dynamic in certain areas .

just my opinion

Considering the type of sound and speakers I prefer tubes have represented much better value for money for me. The solid state equipment that I could consider costs a lot more.

microstrip said:

The solid state equipment that I could consider costs a lot more.

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Agreed, micro...Constellation Audio as one example

i lost track of all the ss and tube gear ive owned, they both still sound different to me regardless of topologies. if you think tubes cant do bass you havent heard an early VTL amp with David's hand wound output irons w/ fixed 5-ohm taps. they had great bass quantity AND quality - even into dificult loads.

im 100% tube at the momemnt and lovin' it. the decider for me is when i have SS in the system im always wondering how tubes would sound. when ive got tubes all i can think of is what the next record will sound like

c1ferrari said:

Agreed, micro...Constellation Audio as one example

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Do you own a long distance mind reader?

puroagave said:

the decider for me is when i have SS in the system im always wondering how tubes would sound. when ive got tubes all i can think of is what the next record will sound like

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What we NEED is a ss amp that sounds like tubes...particularly in the lower-mid/upper-bass region
Just playin' -- don't want to start any trouble -- LOL

microstrip said:

Do you own a long distance mind reader?

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Great minds think alike -- heheh
Hey, he's not having a migraine...is he?

Who says so ?? if mr yamada from zanden agrees on that i ll agree with you too

DaveyF said:

However, we have to consider the fact that at some point in time ( and we can debate as to when and if that happens) ss will surpass tubes in all areas.

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No , why should i , even with the boulder which i liked a lot , i probably would still prefer a tube pre , for "" the breath of life ""
I am of the tredmill anyway, call me old fashioned

DaveyF said:

Last night while listening to my classic ARC D70Mk2 tube amp and Tube CAT preamp, a thought occurred to me. In some ways tubes are a PITA....LOL As we all know, tubes give off considerable heat, are sometimes difficult to source, can be costly to replace, are prone to numerous failure issues (more than ss) are subject to various construction variables and on and on. OTOH, for me they produce a sound that at the moment most -and perhaps all, ss misses. However, at the rate of improvement that ss gear seems to be enjoying, I wonder how long it will be before owning tube gear is simply not of any benefit whatsoever over its ss competition. Or, is this wishful thinking and ss gear will never match its tube competition.
Ok, let's hear it from the tube camp and the ss camp.

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I find this thread topic to be mildly interesting. For the sentence I bolded above, some people would argue that the day has already arrived. I certainly know more than a few EEs who could make the argument quite convincingly. As far as tubes being a PITA "someways," they are a PITA in every way. Output tubes are never perfectly matched, they are matched within a tolerable percentage. The tolerable percentage they start out in life matched to doesn't continue as they age. Buying supposedly NOS tubes from FeePay or Audiogon is a total crap shoot. Your odds of buying small signal tubes that are quiet are at best 50/50. Even quiet tubes when new can quickly become noisy/microphonic. Eventually all tubes wear out and have to be replaced and the more tubes you are caring for and nurturing, the more expensive the retube effort is. Some amps like ARC are designed so that if an output tube blows, it takes a cathode resistor with it. For most people, that means a return trip back to ARC for repair.

As for producing a sound that most and perhaps all SS misses, those that love SS would say they are glad they are missing the sound of tubes. Some would argue the tube sound is really the output transformer sound in terms of amps and the sound of added noise with regards to tube preamps. Tubes can never be as quiet as SS and as tubes age, they become less quiet usually. There is no doubt in my mind that tube power amps have come a long way in terms of power supply design and the quality and extension of bass. My ARC VS115 with KT-120 tubes was remarkable in terms of bass extension and quality for a tube amp.

As far as SS "matching" tube gear in sound quality, it more than matches it. It's just a question of what sound you prefer like everything else in this crazy hobby. Tubes have an inherent noise floor that can't be overcome. It comes with the beast and SS beats that noise floor handily. There is a reason why ARC, VTL, and CJ started using FETs with tubes in order to increase gain and reduce noise at the most vulnerable parts of their circuits which would be the input stages.

And having said all of that, I do love the sound of a great tube amp. If I could get real Mullard EL-34 tubes that were matched and affordable, I would still have my Quicksilver MS-190 amp with the triode input boards. This amp kills modern day EL-34 tubes because it runs the plate current at the maximum rated plate dissipation. Real Mullard EL-34s could take it with no problem. Wanna be "Mullard" EL-34s and other current production EL-34s can't. But my oh my, the Quicksilver is one hell of an amp when it is working. I (and my bicep tendon) wish the VS115 was still here so I could hear it again. It just may be the best tube amp I ever had (but it would be great to have a shoot-out with a MS-190 with triode boards and real Mullard EL-34s) and I wouldn't mind hearing it again. However, my KSA-250 is a real ass kicker and it puts a smile on my face when I listen to it. I don't care what anyone says, I think it is a very special amp.

On a final note, people need to realize when they say they love tube gear, for the most part they need to say the love the sound of hybrid tube circuits. Most tube amps and preamps are full of SS parts such as diodes, FETs, and video buffer chips used to lower output impedance. There are few totally tube components on the market, and if you have a pure tube amp meaning it has a tube rectifier, you will have yesteryear tube bass.

Rockitman wrote: "I would never own a Tube power amp. too much care and feeding."

Rockitman wrote: "I would never own a Tube power amp. too much care and feeding."

My wife & I love each other; I want to make that clear before the next statement.

My many pieces of tube equipment [including the power amps] take 1% of the "care and feeding" that my wife takes [in a great way].

zz

zztop7 said:

Rockitman wrote: "I would never own a Tube power amp. too much care and feeding."

My wife & I love each other; I want to make that clear before the next statement.

My many pieces of tube equipment [including the power amps] take 1% of the "care and feeding" that my wife takes [in a great way].



zz

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Entirely different topic because wives don't come in tube or SS flavors. Good thing you said "in a great way" in case your wife reads your post. What I took out of this is your wife is a huge PITA and she is monopolizing your time. If that isn't what you meant, I apologize in advance.

zztop7 said:

My many pieces of tube equipment [including the power amps] take 1% of the "care and feeding" that my wife takes [in a great way].

zz

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+1