How to replace your home theater pre-pro with a HTPC!

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Some of you may know that back in Feb of this year I started a mini-project to see if I could replace a pre-pro with a home theater PC.

The experiment has been a resounding success. I've been using the PC in our demo room for around three months now with no hickups, crashes or anything that would make me worry about recommending it as a solid solution. The quality is good enough that it has replaced my other music server (Mac Mini, iTunes, Pure Music) and so now I am using one server for both music and movies. It's really nice to be able to rip blu-rays to a server and be able to choose scenes as needed and skip all the introductory screens. A poor man's Kaleidescape.

The downside is the large amount of configuration that needs to be done to get everything to work. Thankfully I've figured all of this out and documented it in a blog post on my website: how to replace your home theater pre-processor with a HTPC!

Take a look and leave a comment either here or there!

Next up I am going to start looking at what benefits, if any, these new fangled full range room correction plugins like Dirac Live and Audiolense can offer. I am personally not convinced theoretically about full range room correction but given the level of interest in it generally I figure I should at least try these things out, do some measurements and report back my findings.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
Some of you may know that back in Feb of this year I started a mini-project to see if I could replace a pre-pro with a home theater PC.

The experiment has been a resounding success. I've been using the PC in our demo room for around three months now with no hickups, crashes or anything that would make me worry about recommending it as a solid solution. The quality is good enough that it has replaced my other music server (Mac Mini, iTunes, Pure Music) and so now I am using one server for both music and movies. It's really nice to be able to rip blu-rays to a server and be able to choose scenes as needed and skip all the introductory screens. A poor man's Kaleidescape.

The downside is the large amount of configuration that needs to be done to get everything to work. Thankfully I've figured all of this out and documented it in a blog post on my website: how to replace your home theater pre-processor with a HTPC!

Take a look and leave a comment either here or there!

Next up I am going to start looking at what benefits, if any, these new fangled full range room correction plugins like Dirac Live and Audiolense can offer. I am personally not convinced theoretically about full range room correction but given the level of interest in it generally I figure I should at least try these things out, do some measurements and report back my findings.

Nyal, I will be taking possession of my HTPC (build by smallgreencomputer) later this week, in part inspired by your pioneering work - thanks.

Comment. My initial experience with Dirac (on two channel only) was actually very encouraging. So much so that I committed to buying the software. I think you'll be in for a surprise.

Question. Steve B. on AVS forum has been fiddling with a HTPC himself and observed video from his Theta BR player (Oppo based) is a lot better than the HDMI out of the HTPC. What is your experience with video quality of the HTPC compared to an oppo based HDMI source? I will of course try for myself, but just curious about your findings.
 

mojave

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2010
251
0
321
Elkhorn, NE
Excellent job, Nyal! I think I use the exact same settings even down to the .10 second buffer in JRiver's ASIO settings. :)

In an effort to be helpful, here are a couple of comments:
  • You mention the AES16e is a 16 channel PCEe to AES converter. PCIe is just a bus standard and has nothing to do with audio. I would probably say the AES16e encodes PCM for digital transport over AES, but that might not be quite right either. :confused:
  • Adaptive Volume is in the video settings because it is only for audio with video such as DVD, Blu-ray, etc. I leave it off, but the default "Light" setting only increases the volume of quiet videos in the same way the Replay Gain adjusts the volume for music.
  • You show using Parametric EQ 2. I like to use both Parametric EQ and EQ 2 (you can grab them and reorder within the DSP, too). The reason I use both is to be able to turn on/off settings easier for testing. For example, I might use PEQ1 for high/low pass filter and rerouting and PEQ2 for actual PEQ filters. This lets me turn on/off PEQ filters while leaving the active crossovers in place rather than having to uncheck a bunch of boxes.
  • For further testing, I like to use the Analyzer DSP while playing something I know has high output levels (subway crash in The Dark Knight Rises). I set Analyzer's option to "Process independently of internal volume" so it gets maximum volume through the DSP. This lets one see, by looking at the volume RMS, if you are getting close or over peak levels on any channel due to the PEQ filters and bass management. While most will never have their volume all the way up, it at least lets you know where the limits are and if you do need to make any adjustments to prevent clipping.
  • I'm sure not everyone plays just Blu-rays. I really like the Automatic Display Settings changing that can be set in the Video Settings of JRiver. It allows you to make sure your projector is always set to the correct resolution based on the content's fps.
  • Many like to adjust their volume for Blu-rays using Reference Level as 0 on the volume control just like with a normal receiver or pre/pro. You can set the Reference Level in JRiver using Tools > Advanced Tools > Audio Calibration and then enter in the volume % for Reference Level in Options > Audio > Volume > Internal Volume Reference Level. Now the internal volume in JRiver will show as -15 dB, for example, at 50% volume level if Reference Level was found to be at 80%. You can do this on just the Video zone if you want.
  • Redco lets you link directly to a custom cable. I have one cable with 4 outputs and no inputs. My other cable has 3 outputs and 1 input. This gives me a total of 14 outputs and 2 inputs and only 8 XLR connectors total. I added color rings to each XLR to help differentiate them. I use the input for my mic via a Tascam US-366. A link to a custom cable in your article might be helpful to get others started.
  • You didn't mention anything about madVR settings. These really need to be changed from defaults for the best picture quality. There is a wonderful madvr Guide on the JRiver forum that explains all the settings and what is recommended.
  • I'm a little confused what you are doing in the Lynx mixer. I'll have to look at mine when I get home. Are you rerouting channels? If so, I think it would be easier for most to use Mix Channels in JRiver's PEQ DSP and leave the Lynx mixer alone.

This morning I took some measurements with Audiolense while everyone was still asleep. I've been comparing two different sets of hardware for measuring and playback. So far, I am getting a higher quality measurement using the Lynx AES16e as the input/output device with the Tascam US-366 as the mic preamp/ADC. I was able to get my best sounding filter ever. I'm doing a fullrange filter, but even if just doing a partial filter up to 150-200 Hz it is much easier than manually entering all the filters into JRiver's PEQ. I'm looking forward to your chance to play with Audiolense.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
I got my tascam us366, cross spectrum acoustics calibrated mic, 2 Velodyne dd15+ and lynx aes16e in the house. I just need my new dac so I can launch my multi-sub setup. Thanks for your posts Mojave! I will start off using jriver but I don't want to discount audiolense. I am curious comparing IIR with FIR Filters.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
Nyal,
One thing you hadn't mentioned is OCUR cablecard support. I have been using a htpc with cablecard and windows media center for several years. For my money, its not a htpc unless you can watch any TV without a seperate cable box rental fee. To my knowledge, only windows media center was approved for OCUR. Boy wouldn't it be great if Jriver supported cablecard. :D

It looks Jriver supports OCUR cablecard now.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/CableCard_Tuners

Nyal, I am not sure I understand how you are able to contemporaneously output PAP video over hdmi and dts over lynx card. Can you explain how that works?
 
Last edited:

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
Nyal,
One thing you hadn't mentioned is OCUR cablecard support. I have been using a htpc with cablecard and windows media center for several years. For my money, its not a htpc unless you can watch any TV without a seperate cable box rental fee. To my knowledge, only windows media center was approved for OCUR. Boy wouldn't it be great if Jriver supported cablecard. :D

It looks Jriver supports OCUR cablecard now.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/CableCard_Tuners

Nyal, I am not sure I understand how you are able to contemporaneously output PAP video over hdmi and dts over lynx card. Can you explain how that works?

The inability to conveniently route the MCH audio from you cable or satellite receiver is a major annoyance. For obscure reasons there is no way to feed Dolby Digital over coax to the HTPC, process it and output as MCH LPCM to the lynx card. I will have a kludgy workaround; the old Meridian 561 processor will output 4x unencrypted PCM over S/PDIF. So I will hook up my satellite receiver the Meridian and the Meridian to the Lynx card inputs to get MCH audio for TV. I am currently doing the same feeding the S/PDIF inputs from the Meridian into my Trinnov processor.
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
I am not sure why you would need a satellite receiver if you have one of these and a valid cablecard from your cable company.

The inability to conveniently route the MCH audio from you cable or satellite receiver is a major annoyance. For obscure reasons there is no way to feed Dolby Digital over coax to the HTPC, process it and output as MCH LPCM to the lynx card. I will have a kludgy workaround; the old Meridian 561 processor will output 4x unencrypted PCM over S/PDIF. So I will hook up my satellite receiver the Meridian and the Meridian to the Lynx card inputs to get MCH audio for TV. I am currently doing the same feeding the S/PDIF inputs from the Meridian into my Trinnov processor.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
DTS is not being sent over the Lynx card. The HTPC is decoding and sending LPCM over AES via the Lynx card. LPCM is not subject to PAP. This is an old article and much outdated, but explains some of it: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2622/2
I have not kept up with the latest as to whether people cheat n this or not but the rules for AACS copy protection require that any unprotected digital output such s LPCM you mention, cannot have higher sampling rate than 48 Khz. I did not read the full article you linked to but did read this part:

"Cyberlink, everyone's favorite player software manufacturer, supports decoding both TrueHD and DTS-HD MA in software (although it appears that Cyberlink does downsample the 24-bit 48kHz LPCM output to 16-bit 48kHz, but at least you get 8 discrete channels even if you lose the bit-for-bit lossless accuracy of the original signal)."

So at least in 2008, they were doing the "right" thing.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
I have not kept up with the latest as to whether people cheat n this or not but the rules for AACS copy protection require that any unprotected digital output such s LPCM you mention, cannot have higher sampling rate than 48 Khz. I did not read the full article you linked to but did read this part:

"Cyberlink, everyone's favorite player software manufacturer, supports decoding both TrueHD and DTS-HD MA in software (although it appears that Cyberlink does downsample the 24-bit 48kHz LPCM output to 16-bit 48kHz, but at least you get 8 discrete channels even if you lose the bit-for-bit lossless accuracy of the original signal)."

So at least in 2008, they were doing the "right" thing.

Amir, we are not following the 'rules', nor is JRiver. We are relying on the efforts of a company called SlySoft ;)
 

mojave

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2010
251
0
321
Elkhorn, NE
AnyDVDHD blocks the AACS copy protection. I'm not sure if it is the "right" thing, but it does make it possible to view a Blu-ray on the HTPC without ever even ripping. I rent Blu-rays from RedBox and watch on the HTPC without ripping. Below is an article that makes it sound like anydVDHD is not in violation of the DMCA. I won't discuss this issue anymore since I don't know a lot about it.

http://information-channel.com/review-of-slysofts-anydvd-hd-software/822
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Nyal, I will be taking possession of my HTPC (build by smallgreencomputer) later this week, in part inspired by your pioneering work - thanks.

Comment. My initial experience with Dirac (on two channel only) was actually very encouraging. So much so that I committed to buying the software. I think you'll be in for a surprise.

Question. Steve B. on AVS forum has been fiddling with a HTPC himself and observed video from his Theta BR player (Oppo based) is a lot better than the HDMI out of the HTPC. What is your experience with video quality of the HTPC compared to an oppo based HDMI source? I will of course try for myself, but just curious about your findings.

I am looking forward to trying out Dirac. Just a few finishing touches to the demo room (changing the color of the acoustic panels closest the screen to MelloTone premium speaker grille black as the current Anchorage Wolf is more reflective than I thought) and then that's next on the list...unless I also decide to change the projector. I was demoing a SIM2 M150 over the last few days. Very very nice...

Personally I couldn't tell the video quality of the HTPC and blu-ray player apart.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Excellent job, Nyal! I think I use the exact same settings even down to the .10 second buffer in JRiver's ASIO settings. :)

In an effort to be helpful, here are a couple of comments:
  • You mention the AES16e is a 16 channel PCEe to AES converter. PCIe is just a bus standard and has nothing to do with audio. I would probably say the AES16e encodes PCM for digital transport over AES, but that might not be quite right either. :confused:
  • Adaptive Volume is in the video settings because it is only for audio with video such as DVD, Blu-ray, etc. I leave it off, but the default "Light" setting only increases the volume of quiet videos in the same way the Replay Gain adjusts the volume for music.
  • You show using Parametric EQ 2. I like to use both Parametric EQ and EQ 2 (you can grab them and reorder within the DSP, too). The reason I use both is to be able to turn on/off settings easier for testing. For example, I might use PEQ1 for high/low pass filter and rerouting and PEQ2 for actual PEQ filters. This lets me turn on/off PEQ filters while leaving the active crossovers in place rather than having to uncheck a bunch of boxes.
  • For further testing, I like to use the Analyzer DSP while playing something I know has high output levels (subway crash in The Dark Knight Rises). I set Analyzer's option to "Process independently of internal volume" so it gets maximum volume through the DSP. This lets one see, by looking at the volume RMS, if you are getting close or over peak levels on any channel due to the PEQ filters and bass management. While most will never have their volume all the way up, it at least lets you know where the limits are and if you do need to make any adjustments to prevent clipping.
  • I'm sure not everyone plays just Blu-rays. I really like the Automatic Display Settings changing that can be set in the Video Settings of JRiver. It allows you to make sure your projector is always set to the correct resolution based on the content's fps.
  • Many like to adjust their volume for Blu-rays using Reference Level as 0 on the volume control just like with a normal receiver or pre/pro. You can set the Reference Level in JRiver using Tools > Advanced Tools > Audio Calibration and then enter in the volume % for Reference Level in Options > Audio > Volume > Internal Volume Reference Level. Now the internal volume in JRiver will show as -15 dB, for example, at 50% volume level if Reference Level was found to be at 80%. You can do this on just the Video zone if you want.
  • Redco lets you link directly to a custom cable. I have one cable with 4 outputs and no inputs. My other cable has 3 outputs and 1 input. This gives me a total of 14 outputs and 2 inputs and only 8 XLR connectors total. I added color rings to each XLR to help differentiate them. I use the input for my mic via a Tascam US-366. A link to a custom cable in your article might be helpful to get others started.
  • You didn't mention anything about madVR settings. These really need to be changed from defaults for the best picture quality. There is a wonderful madvr Guide on the JRiver forum that explains all the settings and what is recommended.
  • I'm a little confused what you are doing in the Lynx mixer. I'll have to look at mine when I get home. Are you rerouting channels? If so, I think it would be easier for most to use Mix Channels in JRiver's PEQ DSP and leave the Lynx mixer alone.

This morning I took some measurements with Audiolense while everyone was still asleep. I've been comparing two different sets of hardware for measuring and playback. So far, I am getting a higher quality measurement using the Lynx AES16e as the input/output device with the Tascam US-366 as the mic preamp/ADC. I was able to get my best sounding filter ever. I'm doing a fullrange filter, but even if just doing a partial filter up to 150-200 Hz it is much easier than manually entering all the filters into JRiver's PEQ. I'm looking forward to your chance to play with Audiolense.

Thanks for the pointers, you have been a great resource!
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Nyal,
One thing you hadn't mentioned is OCUR cablecard support. I have been using a htpc with cablecard and windows media center for several years. For my money, its not a htpc unless you can watch any TV without a seperate cable box rental fee. To my knowledge, only windows media center was approved for OCUR. Boy wouldn't it be great if Jriver supported cablecard. :D

It looks Jriver supports OCUR cablecard now.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/CableCard_Tuners

Nyal, I am not sure I understand how you are able to contemporaneously output PAP video over hdmi and dts over lynx card. Can you explain how that works?

Maybe I should look into it...but I don't watch cable TV, only movies. Good TV shows I can stream via Amazon into JRiver.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
Personally I couldn't tell the video quality of the HTPC and blu-ray player apart.

Have you considered a top notch HDMI gaming video card? If the motherboard video is equivalent to a BR player, you could make the inference a good card should beat the crap out of it. If you're spec'ing this out for high-end theaters, this would be worth looking into. You may have to get a fanless towerchassis with more expansion slots though...
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
Amir, we are not following the 'rules', nor is JRiver. We are relying on the efforts of a company called SlySoft ;)
Oh, I know all about sylsoft :). Just a note if you are going to sell this to your customers. There are times where new discs get ahead of AnyDVD's decryption abilities until they find a work around which may take a bit of time. For your own use that occasional hiccup may be acceptable. But if you have sold this to a customer who paid thousands of dollars for it and systems around it, you will get pretty angry calls :). I know, my team prior to joining me sold such PCs and got in such trouble that had to take all the gear back.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Oh, I know all about sylsoft :). Just a note if you are going to sell this to your customers. There are times where new discs get ahead of AnyDVD's decryption abilities until they find a work around which may take a bit of time. For your own use that occasional hiccup may be acceptable. But if you have sold this to a customer who paid thousands of dollars for it and systems around it, you will get pretty angry calls :). I know, my team prior to joining me sold such PCs and got in such trouble that had to take all the gear back.

It would only make sense commercially if I could sell it as a hardware box with consulting support for software configuration and maintenance. The client would need to be properly qualified on the pros and cons.

For most people the most appropriate solution is a blu-ray or a server running a dedicated OS (K-Scape, etc) and a high end pre-pro.

I would not sell it as a packaged solution, makes no sense for the reasons you say and for the expectation that if sold as a package that it will work reliably.

I would not trust anything based on a computer running a generic OS to be stable and work reliably especially when said computer is doing software updates by itself and people are using it for internet browsing, etc. Maybe someone with deep computer knowledge could lock things down enough to make it viable.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
It would only make sense commercially if I could sell it as a hardware box with consulting support for software configuration and maintenance. The client would need to be properly qualified on the pros and cons.

For most people the most appropriate solution is a blu-ray or a server running a dedicated OS (K-Scape, etc) and a high end pre-pro.

I would not sell it as a packaged solution, makes no sense for the reasons you say and for the expectation that if sold as a package that it will work reliably.

I would not trust anything based on a computer running a generic OS to be stable and work reliably especially when said computer is doing software updates by itself and people are using it for internet browsing, etc. Maybe someone with deep computer knowledge could lock things down enough to make it viable.

I believe the Music Vault is pretty much pieced together and locked down using standard components, including Windows 7 and a few server software options.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing