Please read: How/Where do I get training?

RBFC

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With much thanks and respect to Don and other members who have contributed, I want to provide a few guidelines we can use when evaluating different self-defense programs. With so many "dojos" and strip mall karate centers abounding, how does one make an intelligent choice for training? Hopefully, we can establish a few basic criteria that will help narrow our choices.

I will first state that there is a strong tendency for one to say, "Hell, I'll just get a gun and shoot the guy! Karate doesn't stop a bullet!" While it's obvious that firearms are indeed efficient tools for self defense, the important aspect (often unexamined by those making that statement) is UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES WILL I HAVE TO DEFEND MYSELF?

The literature is filled with reports of individuals "strapping on a gun" and immediately being transformed into invincible beings. The reality is that civilians are often ill-equipped to use a firearm in self defense. Consider the typical scenario:

The beggar comes toward you, asking for spare change. You refuse and attempt to back off to maintain a bit more distance. The beggar continues his approach. 99+% of folks will not shoot him, since he has not demonstrated any reason to do so.

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SIDEBAR:*** The courts ask for "ability, opportunity, and motive" when assessing use of deadly force cases. In other words, when on trial for killing in self defense, they want to know:

1. if the bad guy had the ability to kill you (bigger than you, had weapons, etc.)

2. if the bad guy had the opportunity to kill you (proximity, you with low chance of escape, etc.)

3. if the bad guy had a reason to kill you (what made him decide to carry out the attack i.e. "he wanted my wallet")

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So, we (as good people) don't just shoot someone who's annoying us! However, he is still close enough that there is almost zero chance that we would be able to draw our gun and shoot him before he could potentially kill us. Tough situation to be in, huh? It's been demonstrated that the average healthy male can cover 21 feet in 1.5-2.0 seconds, less time than it takes most people to draw a firearm and shoot. Since those figures come from police testing, with the gun/holster combination set up for good access, you can see how attempting to get a gun out of your pocket or out of a concealed holster under your clothing will slow you down even more. If the bad guy chooses to lunge at you, bare-handed or with a weapon, YOU WILL NEED TO HAVE SOME HAND-TO-HAND SKILLS IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.

Using this scenario as one example of a realistic need for self defense, we are now better prepared to evaluate self defense schools for their ability to provide us with RELEVANT training that will help us survive. There are other archetypal scenarios for criminal assault, but I believe I've made my point here. Understand what we are trying to achieve and choose the path that will get us there most efficiently.

So, we walk into a local school and observe a class. What do we look for?

1. Are there adult students, or does the instruction appear to be oriented toward kids? (Kid's classes are for a somewhat different purpose than what we're seeking. I do believe that kid's classes serve an excellent function, just not what we need.)

2. Are the techniques being practiced of a highly-athletic type? It's a plain fact that most folks will not put in the necessary amount of training time in order to develop and maintain highly-athletic fighting skills. Rather, we should be looking for practical movements that make immediate sense to us as we watch.

3. Is there a reasonable amount of force being used in the practice of the techniques? Unless you train to understand how it feels to engage an aggressive opponent, you will be a complete novice when it comes to the real thing. A good training facility will have a logical progression of force in training, with the necessary gear available to allow higher force levels without ridiculous chance of injury.

4. Does the curriculum contain tactics against knives, guns, and impact weapons? Certainly, criminals prefer to use a weapon rather than their bare hands.....

5. Does the curriculum contain a module on handling the pre-physical "talking/argument" portion of a confrontation?

These are a few considerations when choosing a self defense school.


If you are interested in a traditional martial art, it's best to choose one that allows you to practice against someone who uses all his strength to "win", so that you become more accustomed to the reality of a struggle.

Here's a few choices:

1. Brazilian Jiujitsu: the armed forces have adopted programs based on BJJ, because it allows a high degree of exertion during training, but offers a relatively low injury rate.

2. Wrestling: A foundational art for understanding the clash between two human bodies

3. Judo: develops balance and an understanding of leverage

4. Muay Thai: a striking art that develops your ability to hit with your knees and elbows, as well as fists and feet. Emphasis on physical conditioning.


There are other choices, but these are some good examples of traditional programs that can provide excellent base skills. If we enroll in a traditional school, we can certainly keep the "criminal paradigm" in mind as we train, so that we can orient our performance toward our desired self defense goals. For instance, as we wrestle, we can always think about "what if he reaches for his waist to get a knife?" or "how can I access my own weapon from this position?" With the proper mindset in place, we can maximize the self defense potential of any training!

I'll be glad to answer any questions with the resources at my disposal. I hope that this brief outline of thought helps you to decide what's right for you!

Lee
 

DonH50

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This is all awesome, Lee!

Regarding the need for hand-to-hand, I agree entirely. At the concealed-carry class I recently took the instructor set up a couple of scenarios with me as the aggressor and we demonstrated how a gun will not stop most attacks. Bullets do not kill instantly, and except for what is usually a lucky shot will not slow down an attacker for tens of seconds to several minutes. In that amount of time you can be maimed or dead from a gun, knife, screwdriver, or whatever wound, if not simply having your head bashed in. There is also the issue of multiple attackers. Finally, as Lee says, most of us will not immediately respond with deadly force, "do not kill" and the (un)believability of the situation ("this can't be happening to me, he's not really going to hurt me!") makes us hesitate. Sometimes fatally.

IMO, and speaking as an ex-3rd-dan BB in Shotokhan with many years (in my youth) training and teaching, traditional martial arts programs are great but the self-defense programs Lee is describing are much different. The self-defense programs I have worked with (as teacher or student) focused on a much broader range of techniques that can be performed with less training and by those less physically able to maintain the high degree of fitness many martial arts programs require. They also cover a lot of "street" situations that some martial arts schools may not cover, or may cover much later in the program after you have gained sufficient proficiency in the eyes of the instructor. No kata, for example; how many others had to learn 30 – 100 kata to earn a belt, then have to figure out how to apply them to the street? At least several years as a chiller gave me a lot of (painful) real-world experience, including a couple of knife wounds and one gunshot burn. Nothing serious, fortunately, but I saw big, well-trained guys go down when they underestimated the opponent or overestimated their skills.

One other point: one of my best instructors, from Japan and an incredible martial artist, said decades of training cannot stop one lucky punch.

I think Lee's points are spot-on and that this thread should be made a sticky. - Don
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I don't mean to belittle self-defense, I just don't understand why so many people think it is a priority. As a musician, I've spent a lot of time in bars, most not exactly quiet suburban lounges, and drawing attention to myself by definition. The last time I had to defend myself, or felt like I might have to defend myself, was nearly 40 years ago. All these guys who feel like the need to carry concealed guns to get through the year alive...what on earth are they doing? Where are they hanging out? How are they drawing all this danger to themselves?

I don't get it.

Tim
 

RBFC

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I don't mean to belittle self-defense, I just don't understand why so many people think it is a priority. As a musician, I've spent a lot of time in bars, most not exactly quiet suburban lounges, and drawing attention to myself by definition. The last time I had to defend myself, or felt like I might have to defend myself, was nearly 40 years ago. All these guys who feel like the need to carry concealed guns to get through the year alive...what on earth are they doing? Where are they hanging out? How are they drawing all this danger to themselves?

I don't get it.

Tim

Tim,

Bars are notorious for lots of fights, no doubt. However, bar fights are often "match fights", where both parties agree to fight over a perceived slight: "You spilled my beer!".... "Were you looking at my girlfriend's backside?" ... "I was sitting there!"... etc. We are NOT discussing this type of fight here.

Criminal activity that requires self-defense is another animal. You are chosen as a victim because the criminal believes they will receive a "pay-off" worth the effort. This is different than the ego-driven fights often seen at bars. If you are selected as a criminal's victim, the criminal's goal is not to "beat you up", but to take what he perceives as his reward for committing the act. He doesn't want the "fight of his life", he wants an easy payday.

Simply by your typical method of expression here, I'd say that you most likely do not exhibit positive victim selection behaviors. Your response is therefore akin to the small fish stating that they don't get what all the worry about being eaten by a shark is about! I personally have heard the exact same sentiment hundreds of times, "Nothing's ever happened to me, why should I worry now?" I've never heard a true crime victim say that they don't wish they'd been more prepared.

How many of us carry automobile insurance? How many of us did all those stupid fire drills when we were in school? How many of us do fasten our seatbelt in our car? WE DO THESE THINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE INEXORABLY LINKED TO POSITIVE OUTCOMES IF THE EVENTS THEY CONCERN ACTUALLY OCCUR!

As a more on-topic example, I'll review the case of Albert DeSalvo. You might know him by the nickname THE BOSTON STRANGLER. An Army boxing champion, DeSalvo raped over a hundred women and eventually became bored with same-old, same-old. So, he began killing them, then raping them, sometimes the opposite. When he was captured, he was interviewed.

Interviewer: "Were you always successful in committing the crime once you had chosen your victim?"

DeSalvo: "Heavens no! One time, I snuck up behind a woman and clasped my hand over her mouth to prevent her from screaming. She bit my finger so hard that I had to run away!"

This is first-hand testimony from a hardened physical specimen who was very skilled at attacking women.

STATISTICS SHOW THAT EFFECTIVE RESISTANCE STOPS OVER 90% OF RAPES. DeSalvo was no different, in that he didn't want the fight of his life. He just wanted to follow the usual script of his crime. When that plan was disrupted, even a hardened criminal chose to get away rather than continue in the face of high resistance.


Tim, your response is a typical one born out of lack of knowledge on the subject matter. By projecting your personal experience onto a different setting, your position carries little validity. I'm extremely gratified that you have not been the focus of a criminal assault OR been involved in a simple bar fight! Those who have experienced one of the 3.5 million reported burglaries in the US most certainly feel a little different.

Lee
 
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JackD201

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I don't mean to belittle self-defense, I just don't understand why so many people think it is a priority. As a musician, I've spent a lot of time in bars, most not exactly quiet suburban lounges, and drawing attention to myself by definition. The last time I had to defend myself, or felt like I might have to defend myself, was nearly 40 years ago. All these guys who feel like the need to carry concealed guns to get through the year alive...what on earth are they doing? Where are they hanging out? How are they drawing all this danger to themselves?

I don't get it.

Tim

If you were a lousy guitarist you might have needed to take a class in beer bottle dodging. Thank the lord for your talent Tim, it's what's kept you safe. :D

If I were a musician, I would definitely prefer to play in a bar with trained bouncers. Wouldn't you?

We have to remember that Lee trains law enforcement and personal protection professionals. They protect the good guys.

Like it or not, there will always be baddies out there who might be out to hurt you or your family. Take it from someone who lives in the third world where the cop to citizen ratio is dismal. Do I carry? No. Does my driver carry? No. When I was a member of the House of Representatives I had exactly one bodyguard. I didn't ask for one but the Governor insisted. Better safe than sorry he said. My thinking is still that if someone is really out to get you, he will find a way no matter what army you might surround yourself with. So I still went out by myself a lot. If anything, he was good company on the often long road sorties. He may have deterred a crazy or two but I guess I'll never know.
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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I don't mean to belittle self-defense, I just don't understand why so many people think it is a priority. As a musician, I've spent a lot of time in bars, most not exactly quiet suburban lounges, and drawing attention to myself by definition. The last time I had to defend myself, or felt like I might have to defend myself, was nearly 40 years ago. All these guys who feel like the need to carry concealed guns to get through the year alive...what on earth are they doing? Where are they hanging out? How are they drawing all this danger to themselves?

I don't get it.

Tim

Speaking for myself, I don't subscribe to Darwinian natural selection. Sure, the odds may be slim you are involved in a potentially deadly situation but this mantra to disarm law abiding citizens, gives a free pass to the bad guys. Remember, gun laws don't apply to them or their decision making process.
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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In all fairness, Tim's response and position is not unique. If you've never had a flat tire on your car, you probably haven't given much thought on how to change it efficiently. This line of reasoning is exactly why I agreed to post all this information here on WBF. I'm completely aware that we comprise a very different demographic than that which usually sees this material. I sincerely hope to provide clear information so that our members can make informed decisions about their own lifestyles.

Lee
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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Hi Lee,

Aside from combat knife fighting (I have to travel at least an hour and a half) and sports oriented martial arts (no longer interested) the closest thing to me (about 5 blocks away) is a Krav Maga studio tought by Israeli ex-military. Any thoughts on Krav Maga? I am godfather to the son of the facility's owner.
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
5,158
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1,225
Albuquerque, NM
www.fightingconcepts.com
Hi Lee,

Aside from combat knife fighting (I have to travel at least an hour and a half) and sports oriented martial arts (no longer interested) the closest thing to me (about 5 blocks away) is a Krav Maga studio tought by Israeli ex-military. Any thoughts on Krav Maga? I am godfather to the son of the facility's owner.

I'd recommend that you try Krav Maga. The focus is similar to the way I view personal protection needs, and the coursework has more similarities than differences.

Lee
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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I don't mean to belittle self-defense, I just don't understand why so many people think it is a priority. As a musician, I've spent a lot of time in bars, most not exactly quiet suburban lounges, and drawing attention to myself by definition. The last time I had to defend myself, or felt like I might have to defend myself, was nearly 40 years ago. All these guys who feel like the need to carry concealed guns to get through the year alive...what on earth are they doing? Where are they hanging out? How are they drawing all this danger to themselves?

I don't get it.

Tim

A few examples:

  1. Woman jogger grabbed, beaten, raped, and left for dead in a local park.
  2. Numerous bar fights in Colorado Springs, a town with heavy military ties (lots of young guys trying to outdo each other), and I have seen numerous altercations in bars/clubs in the past. The musicians (and I was often one) were rarely impacted but often patron bystanders were. I cannot recall the last time I was in a bar but that does not mean I don't feel the need to be ready just in case. When I was a chiller it was my job to help the bouncers when they got in trouble and to move any potentially dangerous person out as quickly and quietly as possible. There may have been instances you did not notice (many times I was told of disturbances later that I never saw while on stage).
  3. A friend was beaten up after a sporting event by a guy who mistook him for someone else. He was off his horn for months and had to rebuild much of his playing career along with his chops.
  4. Gangs invading bars, neighborhoods, etc.
  5. Toddler maimed by coyote while out walking with Mom.

I have not had to defend myself for many decades, but would like to regain some of the skills I had just for insurance if nothing else. Sure, many of us never see a fight, let alone get involved in one, but the statistics are not negligible and I would like to be able to defend myself and family if need be. The vast majority of the people I know and/or read about were not seeking a fight (or beating), far from it, and most were not in places they would expect one. As for concealed carry, I do not want to enter that debate here, but will note that is not the focus of these threads. A self-defense course and regime serves as fitness training with the added benefit that, should a "bad" situation arise, you are better equipped to deal with it. The odds may be small you will use them outside the dojo, but "Be Prepared" is a motto I learned and taught for many decades.

IMO - Don
 

Duke LeJeune

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Jul 22, 2013
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Just found this forum, slowly working my way through these threads. Very very good stuff. Thank you Lee, and thank you Steve.

For twenty years I lived in New Orleans. I lived in a neighborhood with a lot of fairly well-off elderly people, so it was a fairly high-crime area because its residents made relatively easy victims. For instance, a common scenario was an armed robbery in between one's car and one's front door.

I was involved in three such incidents while living there. And just in case you're wondering, no I was not the perp!

Three in twenty years. Assuming I went out twice a day, that's only a .002% chance of any given sortie resulting in a criminal encounter. That's hardly high enough to be worth taking extremist precautions over, right??

Well I was obviously some kind of nutcase. Somewhere along the way I'd encountered the concept of simply remaining in "condition yellow" whenever I was outside, and so I made that a habit (it wasn't my only habit, but it's the only one I'll directly mention here). Starting from condition yellow, AND listening to the little voice in my head when it said "something's not right here", I was able to dominate each of the three situations, and nobody got hurt. Some adrenaline got pumped, but everybody went home intact.

And just for the record, that little voice in my head never once gave a false alarm. The only three times in New Orleans it sounded the alarm, it was the real thing.
 
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