Why vinyl and NOS sound better to me

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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Sacramento Ca
Why do non oversampling DAC's sound like records, only bettered by the best NOS players? To me it is obvious why. The music signal need only be interpreted the first go around. A neighbor of mine has an all Audio Note digital SET system costing some $150k He also had a very fine turntable. On a visit, the fellow played a classical piece on his digital system. It was very nice, with excellent musicality. Then, he played the same classical score on vinyl. The two were hard to tell apart.

On my system, the difference between the two types of digital processing are magnified. The oversamplers just don't cut it. They all sound contrived. My NOS player is quite different than anything one can buy. I found out replacing the dowdy sounding diodes with new ultra fast recovery diodes opens a floodgate of before hidden information on CDs.

Modern digital players, with few exceptions, have a host of chips music is run through, and manipulated. First came oversampling with separate digital filters, then master clocks. To correct the clocks, some folks are pushing jitter control circuitry.

In contrast, the non-oversampling DAC lets the music through, unencumbered by oversampling, and filtering, or jitter masking. One has to wonder just what it was that led audio engineers to move on eradicating distortion that can be measured in the hyper HF, but not heard by anyone. Those who believe the engineers also believe they can hear 24 khz. I can't help you folks.

Molecular science explains what is going on quite well. Too bad the math is beyond most of us. We don't have to work through high math though. Lots of papers deal with the phenomenon in common language. Quantum mechanics describes the uncertainty of sub molecular particles such as electrons. Experiments have shown conclusively great care has to be given when manipulating electrons and what the charges they influence.

A terrific example of how science and audio go hand in hand is the invention of the transistor. It could not have been invented by audio engineers. It took molecular scientists. Their invention is based directly on the strangeness of electrons and electro magnetic propagation. It is a scientific masterpiece of working **with** quantum behavior. Oversampling, up-sampling, clocks and jitter controls are examples of trying to control quantum behavior; unsuccessfully I can confidently add.

I can't see why this isn't rudimentary. The two source types that bring the music in the most direct, undamaged form, are vinyl and NOS digital. Once you realize this, you can work to maximize the invisibility of either. In vinyl, one thing that helps is the improvement of the cartridge sensitivity. In NOS digital it is the opening the diode gates for full musical freedom.
 
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muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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Ok, i wrote Audio Note, and indeed it has a clock. I had never known this. I never heard of clocks until folks started calling for external clocks, and master clocks. By my sound, I can definitely tell there is no problem with the clock on my DAC.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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The Audio Note site can be confusing in how they explain things. Hearing jitter artifacts requires skill and specific equipment. I am hoping to write something on that one of these days but can't find the time :). But it is entirely possible that you are not hearing any such artifacts. Most people do not.
 

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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Sacramento Ca
The Audio Note site can be confusing in how they explain things. Hearing jitter artifacts requires skill and specific equipment. I am hoping to write something on that one of these days but can't find the time :). But it is entirely possible that you are not hearing any such artifacts. Most people do not.

Why would I want to know jitter presence that can only be measured by specific equipment? My hearing was tested. Has yours? I was in a black booth durning the test. After listening to ever lighter tones in one test, the tester came around and asked me if I could see him during the test. The reason he asked was, I was testing way over what is supposed is the limit of human hearing. You can call me a freak.

One day, I was at a fellow audiophile's house. A reviewer neighbor was there too. They were trying some AB well reviewed amps at the time. They both liked it very much. I heard a grainy mid, and bright highs.

It is with our ears that we enjoy, or not enjoy the music. My system has nary a thread of any distortion. It is true to the source. It also proves the superiority of CD over vinyl and SACD. It can do this, because it is so sensitive to everything. With the wrong cable, preamp, or source, I can make this system go sour.

I know that you being a pro jitter hardware designer you have a stake in whether jitter distortion is accepted. I don't. You would have to hear what my speakers are doing to know that.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
Why would I want to know jitter presence that can only be measured by specific equipment?
Well, you said your NOS had "jitter masking." The only way to know if such a circuit is truly effective is to measure it. You can't tell exactly how fast your are going in a car by just looking at the trees go by :D.

My hearing was tested. Has yours?
Of course. Did your Audiologist know how to test for your ability to hear jitter?

I was in a black booth durning the test. After listening to ever lighter tones in one test, the tester came around and asked me if I could see him during the test. The reason he asked was, I was testing way over what is supposed is the limit of human hearing. You can call me a freak.
OK, you answered my question as what you went through was a standard frequency response test that they run. Nothing in that test unfortunately determines your ability to hear jitter artifacts.

It is with our ears that we enjoy, or not enjoy the music.
We do. We also all can tell what ice cream tastes like but most of us would not be hired to be a taster and Ben and Jerry's ice cream factory and testing lab :). That is all I was trying to say in my post. I have been fortunate in testing many people's ability to hear non-linear distortions and I find that most people cannot hear it without training. Select few are gifted and can of course but they are more of the exception than the rule. Unfortunately with negative logic, I can't tell if you fall in that category or not. That is, the fact that you can't hear jitter artifacts could be either because a) you don't hear jitter or b) jitter doesn't exist in your gear. In testing, we use affirmative tools to determine that.

I know that you being a pro jitter hardware designer you have a stake in whether jitter distortion is accepted. I don't. You would have to hear what my speakers are doing to know that.
I don't work in the hardware industry so have no dog in the hunt. I also don't subscribe to either extremes in these arguments. Jitter is a non-consideration for the entire mass market and large part of the audiophile group. For the rest of us, it is something to think about. That's all.
 

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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Sacramento Ca
Amir, sorry with confusing you with the jitter doctors. I find it interesting I have to be trained to hear jitter. I listen to pristine music. The Apogee Scintilla may very well be the most transparent speaker ever. The gossamer aluminum tweeters, loosely hung, are easily damped by air only.
 

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