not yet
I leave for Chicago tomorrow and return on Saturday, I hope to have them out of the room shortly
Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter Steve Williams
- Start date
not yet
I leave for Chicago tomorrow and return on Saturday, I hope to have them out of the room shortly
Curious, are you removing the subs permanently? If so due to the sound being worse with subs, it's possible that integration isn't optimal. Also curious if you've measured your room to see where the subs can help with nulls along with trying different room placement.
I’ve pretty much done it all. In my room playing all music genres the sound is best with the subs off as well as some of the side and front drapes left open
When I was at Steve's several weeks ago and we decided to turn the JL's off, I was sitting in the listening position listening to Witches Brew, which is quite complex in the midbass and midrange. While there was the loss of several cycles of bass from the Alexandria's the sound all the way through the midrange became much more articulate and realistic. While I expected an improvement of around the crossover point, I was surprised about the frequency range of the improvement.
With my current speakers, Vivid G3's, the subs are needed because the Vivids do not go deep enough for my taste. Although I am looking for other speakers with more bass extension so I can eliminate the subs, I am playing with their position to help the integration with the side firing Vivids. I tried a wild concept that actually is providing the best blend in my setup and have put the subs about 18 inches directly behind the Vivids to reduce the turbulence with the side firing woofs. Ironically one of my woofs developed a constant hum, which according to JL is probably due to one of the electrolytic caps necessary for auto trigger drying out. With it out of my system, the bass is tighter, but totally insufficient.
When I was at Steve's several weeks ago and we decided to turn the JL's off, I was sitting in the listening position listening to Witches Brew, which is quite complex in the midbass and midrange. While there was the loss of several cycles of bass from the Alexandria's the sound all the way through the midrange became much more articulate and realistic. While I expected an improvement of around the crossover point, I was surprised about the frequency range of the improvement.
With my current speakers, Vivid G3's, the subs are needed because the Vivids do not go deep enough for my taste. Although I am looking for other speakers with more bass extension so I can eliminate the subs, I am playing with their position to help the integration with the side firing Vivids. I tried a wild concept that actually is providing the best blend in my setup and have put the subs about 18 inches directly behind the Vivids to reduce the turbulence with the side firing woofs. Ironically one of my woofs developed a constant hum, which according to JL is probably due to one of the electrolytic caps necessary for auto trigger drying out. With it out of my system, the bass is tighter, but totally insufficient.
Good luck on the speaker hunt - perhaps you could open your own thread to continue the discussion?
I think you will enjoy the sound of your system even more once the Jl subs are removed. I need to make a reservation to come listen again. I want to hear it with the changes you have done. Enjoy Chicago and we await your return.
Thanks to Leif from VSA and my son who visited 2 days ago who helped to remove my pair of JL Audio Fathom F113 subs from my system. Having played some music for leif with deep bass with the subs on and off, he too was quickly of the opinion that the subs just aren't needed in my room.
The song which convinced him was Depeche Mode , Welcome To My World
So I have an almost new and virtually perfect pair of Fathom F113 subs for sale and will entertain any and all reasonable offers
I am seeking $2200 USD per sub. As stated they are mint and not a mark or blemish on them. They come with manual, room optimizing microphones from JL Audio and original crates
These are the original version 1 Fathom F113.
Please contact me for any questions.
I will also include at no cost the pair of 12 meter cables that I used from my preamp to the subs
The song which convinced him was Depeche Mode , Welcome To My World
So I have an almost new and virtually perfect pair of Fathom F113 subs for sale and will entertain any and all reasonable offers
I am seeking $2200 USD per sub. As stated they are mint and not a mark or blemish on them. They come with manual, room optimizing microphones from JL Audio and original crates
These are the original version 1 Fathom F113.
Please contact me for any questions.
I will also include at no cost the pair of 12 meter cables that I used from my preamp to the subs
I wanted to give a brief update on my system in the past few weeks. I offer up these thoughts as there are several threads now on WBF discussing tubes and how one knows when a tube s going bad.
My Lamm ML3 amps are notorious for blowing their 6N30P tubes every 12-8 months.
I also use a special copper plate GM-70 output tube which not only give off beautiful coper glow but the sound IMO is much more natural than the carbon plate GM-70 tubes that come stock with the amp.
Know the carbon plate is a work horse and lasts for years. Unbeknownst to me the copper plated GM-70 have a longevity of 12-18 months which is not a long time to be buying a pair of tubes that are $900.
Several weeks ago fellow member LeifS came over to visit and to hear my system with the full system supported on Center Stage feet
When Leif was present he commented about a quick hissing sound that could be heard just as music begins. Neither of us knew what the significance was
.
The listening session FWIW actually sounded great and no other deficiencies were heard
Leif was so enthralled I gave him 5 sets (20) 0f CS feet to use in his system as he was very interested in a personal demo in his system
Several days later I decided to have a listen on my own and I powered the system up and left for 30 minutes to allow the system to warm up
When I came back much t my chagrin I had no sound from my left channel and there was the smell of a burned out tube
A quick cable swap through the system pointed clearly to the Left ML3 and my experience when this happens is that a 6N30P tube blew.
I got out my spare set of 6N3P tubes for the left channel and after making the swap I once again had sound.
I hadn't adjusted the plate current bias to the 1.1 volts required in many weeks and because of the tube change I got out my Fluke meter and measured. I was shocked to see the Fluke at 1.060 volts which is the lowest I had ever seen it. I adjusted the left trim screw and was able to bring the plate current to the required 1.1 volts but it took quite a lot of turns to the trim screw and made me wonder what was going on. As a result I measured the plate current on the right side and it too was measuring 1.060 volts. Turning the trim screw was fruitless as I had to turn the screw full max and having done that I could not get the right plate current above 1.070 volts
I spoke to Vladimir who asked me to send back the left quartet of 6N30P tubes as well as both the left and right GM-70's
He called me a few days later confirming that I had one dead 6N30P tube which he replaced. The big kicker from however was that my right GM-70 was virtually dead and the left one was breathing its last gasp as well.
Long and the short was a purchase of a new pair of GM-70 copper plate
They arrived 5 days ago and the break in process began with playing music for 8 hours each day.
The long and the short of it is not only is the hiss that Leif heard is gone but once again there is that glorious copper glow from each tube, something which I have not seen in quite a while which confirms my dying tubes
The good news is the sound. Suffice it to say that as good as the sound was when Leif visited it is quantum leaps better now than before. There is an amazing more amount of detail heard and the immersive effect I hear now is so much bigger than before the tube switch
The lesson for me to take away is to pay attention to these weird tube sounds as it might just be a tube ready to give up the ghost. To say I am stunned with the overall improvement is an understatement.
I discussed my thoughts with ddk who has the same amp and has had the same revelation when inserting new copper plated GM-70 tubes. He suggested that if I wanted to have yet another revelation I should consider getting new tubes for the power supply to my Lamm LL1 preamp. I spoke to Lamm today and have new 6x4 tubes coming
Stay tuned
My Lamm ML3 amps are notorious for blowing their 6N30P tubes every 12-8 months.
I also use a special copper plate GM-70 output tube which not only give off beautiful coper glow but the sound IMO is much more natural than the carbon plate GM-70 tubes that come stock with the amp.
Know the carbon plate is a work horse and lasts for years. Unbeknownst to me the copper plated GM-70 have a longevity of 12-18 months which is not a long time to be buying a pair of tubes that are $900.
Several weeks ago fellow member LeifS came over to visit and to hear my system with the full system supported on Center Stage feet
When Leif was present he commented about a quick hissing sound that could be heard just as music begins. Neither of us knew what the significance was
.
The listening session FWIW actually sounded great and no other deficiencies were heard
Leif was so enthralled I gave him 5 sets (20) 0f CS feet to use in his system as he was very interested in a personal demo in his system
Several days later I decided to have a listen on my own and I powered the system up and left for 30 minutes to allow the system to warm up
When I came back much t my chagrin I had no sound from my left channel and there was the smell of a burned out tube
A quick cable swap through the system pointed clearly to the Left ML3 and my experience when this happens is that a 6N30P tube blew.
I got out my spare set of 6N3P tubes for the left channel and after making the swap I once again had sound.
I hadn't adjusted the plate current bias to the 1.1 volts required in many weeks and because of the tube change I got out my Fluke meter and measured. I was shocked to see the Fluke at 1.060 volts which is the lowest I had ever seen it. I adjusted the left trim screw and was able to bring the plate current to the required 1.1 volts but it took quite a lot of turns to the trim screw and made me wonder what was going on. As a result I measured the plate current on the right side and it too was measuring 1.060 volts. Turning the trim screw was fruitless as I had to turn the screw full max and having done that I could not get the right plate current above 1.070 volts
I spoke to Vladimir who asked me to send back the left quartet of 6N30P tubes as well as both the left and right GM-70's
He called me a few days later confirming that I had one dead 6N30P tube which he replaced. The big kicker from however was that my right GM-70 was virtually dead and the left one was breathing its last gasp as well.
Long and the short was a purchase of a new pair of GM-70 copper plate
They arrived 5 days ago and the break in process began with playing music for 8 hours each day.
The long and the short of it is not only is the hiss that Leif heard is gone but once again there is that glorious copper glow from each tube, something which I have not seen in quite a while which confirms my dying tubes
The good news is the sound. Suffice it to say that as good as the sound was when Leif visited it is quantum leaps better now than before. There is an amazing more amount of detail heard and the immersive effect I hear now is so much bigger than before the tube switch
The lesson for me to take away is to pay attention to these weird tube sounds as it might just be a tube ready to give up the ghost. To say I am stunned with the overall improvement is an understatement.
I discussed my thoughts with ddk who has the same amp and has had the same revelation when inserting new copper plated GM-70 tubes. He suggested that if I wanted to have yet another revelation I should consider getting new tubes for the power supply to my Lamm LL1 preamp. I spoke to Lamm today and have new 6x4 tubes coming
Stay tuned
A brief comment on smell.
Burned tubes do not smell - they are sealed. If you are experiencing smell probably it is a component adjacent to the tube that has been heating and diffusing the characteristic smell of heated electric components. If it was too intense perhaps you should check the value of the resistors in the 6h30 circuits. I often use a high quality PTD 1 thermo detector from Bosch to diagnose tubes. Although the temperature of the anodes in not know unless you register it, comparing them between tubes can be a good diagnostic, particularly in mono blocks - we usually do not expect simultaneous faults! BTW, the PTD 1 should be pointed directly at the flat anode surfaces, not at the glass tops.
Yes, I know that owning a thermo detector is a signal of extreme tube addiction, but I also use it for other more reasonable applications!
Attachments
-
k1.jpg
Understood. The smell was minor and no damage to any circuitry
I just ordered two pair of new 6x4 tubes for the power supplies to my preamp
I just ordered two pair of new 6x4 tubes for the power supplies to my preamp
Not exactly correct. There does seem to be a lot of misinformation about tube aging and tube gear in particular on forums these days. Like all gear, tube gear needs a little bit of care in handling. For instance, I would NEVER leave any tube amp alone upon start up....too much risk if there is going to be a failure ( IMO, if you have to leave the room, checking in on the amps frequently after start up is also a pretty good practice...
) Tubes tend to have an 'infant failure cycle' as well. So, making sure all is good upon start up with new tubes and looking for any issues is always wise, IME ( even with well burned in tubes). The design of the amp also has a lot to do with the expected tube life...a lot of designers run the tubes too hot...result..a shortened life. One of my biggies is making sure that my amp doesn't have too many tubes in the power section...leading to excess heat, and again-- shortened tube life and potential for other failures in the circuit.The tube cage that is supplied with most tube amps...generally leave it off! ( Less heat build up with no cage than with a cage ....and yes, if you have small prying hands in your family or pets, this may not be an option)Good ventilation should always be considered ( placing the amp with multiple large power tubes into a very confined space probably is not the smartest thing to do!) What type of tube is the amp using? ( notice I am not saying preamp here as most of these are using small scale tubes and not running them too hot; although my older CAT does have some minor issue with this, and which the designer Ken Stevens has since corrected). Therefore, the preamp tube in most cases has a much longer expected life than the power tube ( or even driver tube) in the amp section. IME, the larger the glass and the larger the plate/getter, the more problematical the tube can be. This is why the designer of the new KT150 tube made the glass the shape that they did....to cut down on the possibility of microphonics/RFI and gas leakage.
A good a'phile friend of mine used to own nothing but SE low powered tube amps....300B's, 845's etc., he won't use them again....not because they don't sound good with the right ancillary gear, instead because he strongly believes that the large glass area and plate/getters increases the propensity for RFI/microphonics.
Lastly, like all gear, tubes have a certain life expectancy. Leave them constantly on for 3000 hours and expect to be changing tubes more often. Turn them off when not in use and you will greatly increase your tube life.
Tubes can be magical, but you have to take into consideration their foibles, all IMHO.
Last edited:
When it comes to tubes, for my ears and my system,IMO the return on investment is worth the occasional inconvenience of blowing a tube
In regards to using tubes. I have always preferred and use tube preamplifiers. I am afraid to use tube amps again due to a bad experience with ARC Classic 120 monoblocks and Martin Logan Electrostatic speakers. I am glad to read you have it under control Steve.
Agreed, but I don’t think tubes should frequently, or even occasionally ‘blow’. Tube aging is another matter. Guality tubes in decent circuits should...and most times do, have a very long life. IME, it is usually the poor quality tube and/or the poor quality amp that causes the problem.
Plus, I don’t believe that ss is absolutely “bullet proof” either. Aging of components strikes all mediums.
Similar threads
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |