Too much juice coming out post coooking

amirm

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Hi Keith. I am puzzled about this. The last two times I have cooked on the barbecue grill, when I brought the meat inside to have it rest, I found a massive pool of juices in the plate. Last example was a set of steaks. I had put pepper and salt on them 30 minutes before cooking. Post resting there was at least a cup of juice for 6 steaks!

What is the cause of all this juice coming out? And did I do any good then by leaving it be before eating?
 

mep

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Hi Keith. I am puzzled about this. The last two times I have cooked on the barbecue grill, when I brought the meat inside to have it rest, I found a massive pool of juices in the plate. Last example was a set of steaks. I had put pepper and salt on them 30 minutes before cooking. Post resting there was at least a cup of juice for 6 steaks!

What is the cause of all this juice coming out? And did I do any good then by leaving it be before eating?


Isn't this natural for any steaks cooked at medium rare or below?
 

Ronm1

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Amirm

As with MEP. Why do you think it's excessive?
We're they dry, lacked moisture after rest. Keep in mind that searing does not seal in juices, it enhances flavor by the process described by Keith In the steak thread.
Just thought of something. On your final salting did you use coarse to promote a crust or fine.
 
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Keith_W

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Amir, in basic medical terms, there are three things that govern movement of fluid between a semipermeable membrane: 1. hydrostatic pressure, 2. osmotic pressure, 3. integrity of the membrane.

In an animal, hydrostatic pressure refers to the pressure generated by the heart (i.e. the blood pressure) + the pressure generated by the column of fluid above it. Both of these are lacking in a piece of meat, but in meat the hydrostatic pressure comes from the contraction of muscles from heat. The more contraction there is, the more fluid will be squeezed out. This is one reason why meat cooked on the bone is juicier - the bone physically resists excessive meat contraction.

The other factor that causes contraction is high heat. High heat is essential to browning the surface of the meat, but a thicker piece of steak will contract less than a thin steak because all that heat has to travel through the muscle first. I have talked in some other threads about the gradient of heat in a steak. You can actually see the gradient of heat by the change in colour of the steak as the heat passes through:



Note the meat closest to the surface is well done, with the colour progressively getting more pink towards the center. In a thin steak, you will rapidly heat up the whole steak before you get adequate colour on the surface. This is why I advocate two stage cooking, because you have two aims when you cook steak - (1) to get the center medium rare, and (2) to develop the Maillard reaction on the surface. See my other threads about two stage cooking.

Osmotic pressure (i.e. pre-salting) is not likely to be the culprit in your case. If you salt your meat before cooking, there is no reason for the osmotic gradient to increase so precipitously during cooking that it suddenly draws out large quantities of liquid. Besides, as more liquid is drawn out, the osmotic pressure should decrease. Excessive salting will dry out your steak, but not to the extent that it leaks out pools of liquid.

Most of the explanation lies in the integrity of the cell membrane. When the membrane is disrupted, fluid readily leaks out from within. Here are a few things that can damage the cell membrane:

- Freezing. Freezing causes ice crystals to grow in the meat. These shear holes in cell walls. When the meat is defrosted, the crystal retreats leaving the holes. The effect is even worse if the meat is re-frozen. When the meat is cooked, contraction of the muscle causes even more fluid to leak out.

- High heat. In addition to causing contraction described above, high heat damages cell walls. Avoid exposing the interior of your meat to too much high heat (i.e. don't overcook your steak).

- Physical treatments, e.g. pounding with a meat tenderizer.

Take home message: use meat which has never been frozen, buy a thick cut, subject it to gentle cooking + high heat for the surface, do not excessively salt. This is what my steak looks like on the carving board. It goes straight off the charcoal grille onto the chopping board, where it sits covered in foil for 10 minutes:



Note there are no juices coming out and the carving board is barely wet.
 

treitz3

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Hello, Keith. I have never understood why folks would wait on eating their steak instead of enjoying it hot off the grill. They instead let it rest and cool. Personally, I'll dive into a steak right off the grill. You know, the "Eat it while it's hot" thing. Is there a plausible explanation for waiting......if the steak is done? Great post and great looking steak [pictured above], BTW.

Tom
 

Keith_W

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Hi Tom, you need to let steaks rest because the muscle contracts when exposed to heat. This expels juices from within the muscle fibre into the space surrounding the cells (the so-called "interstitial space"). If you cut into the steak immediately, the juices would run out and your meat would dry up. As the steak cools, the muscles relax and "suck" the juices back in.

It is worth watching this video by Heston Blumenthal. Forward to 2'50" for an explanation on steak resting.
 

amirm

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Thanks Keith. Answering the earlier questions, my thought was that if all that juice got out what the point of waiting was. In other words, I lost a ton of moisture anyway.

The other reason was that I had not noticed that much moisture loss in my past cooks so I thought something was different.

Keith's explanation makes sense as I was in a hurry and cooked the steak on high heat. I started by cooking them slow and at low temp using indirect heat but folks got anxious so I superchanged it. :D
 

Folsom

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I see this is an old topic but...

Never use low heat to start. The meat won't seal in the juices if you do that. Good heat shouldn't be to the point of turning the grille white/grey, but you need it fairly hot. Flames are not as hot as you'd think so they're not a big,deal.

You'll lose the most juice if you flip onto the uncooked side without high enough heat.

Resting is key because this is actually when the steak cooks in the center (and soaks juices back in). People don't understand that rare or medium rare do in fact mean cooked. It's a matter of how much they're cooked. The ideal is like Keith's picture, but rare would have some blood run a little.

Understanding that the rest period is where cooking finishes is the only proper way to get the inside not raw, but nice n pink. Generally you can set the steak to a low heat area, or keep it in an oven set to a lower temp so that it's still "eat it while it's hot".

So my basic approach.

1. Get some high heat for a seal. Higher for rare. This is more heat than you'd use for a hamburger, but again not enough to turn anything white/grey
A. If it sweats real fast then move it to a little lower heat after after its started to creep up the side a little with grey.
B. If you move it to early you've lost the seal, it won't come back without loses.
2. Once you've hit mid to maybe a little more than halfway up the side with grey color the count down has started for the amount you wish to cook the steak. For rare it's good to hit this point fast with higher heat than medium rare where you'll char it too much with extra cook time.
A. If you want it rare and it's hit this point you've got little time before turn over.
A.1, the steak will be a little compliant still, but should have a little more push back. Probe the top with tongs.
B. If you want medium rare you have to wait a bit longer than you'd think. It's going to need to be there for a moment, seeing blood is not an indicator for turning. I usually go past the feeling of, oh I probably should have turned it. Then I turn, it's been a few minutes.
B1., the steak should be sort of rubbery with push back, if it doesn't push back and bleeding on top or not, you haven't waited long enough.
3. Turn it, make sure heat is sufficient.
A. If its rare you're really just sealing it first, high heat works, you aren't turning it to cook it, it's already happening. You need just long enough to turn the outside to a crisp color, fairly quickly. You're trying to avoid cooking the center anymore than the rest period will.
B. For medium rare you still want good heat, but it's best to leave it on past the point of finishing the outside by about a minute.
4. Rest it. 10 minutes, and realize as you garnish and prepare the plate you'll add a few minutes, that'll still be good, 10 minutes till bite isn't always enough depending.
A. Off to the side on the grill works, as long as it's not enough to cook it.
B. Have a plate in the oven, 200F should be fine.

If you like medium well you have to leave it on side one longer, and side two a bit longer. For well done you leave it on both sides forever... you can't go too wrong, well done is well done so long as you didn't under heat the seal.

I know I gave rough time estimates but it's different on each grill. The most important thing to learning the feel for turn times and such, is consistency with the seal (high enough heat). Without that you're shooting all over in the dark. If at any point you think you need to turn more than once you've already failed. I hope that helps a little... it's a little old world of a description but it's how I figured it out when I was a cook in college. I was pretty obsessed with getting it perfect. BTW I don't like steak at all... !
 
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RogerD

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As people said...a hot grill is a must. Also most of today's meat is graded Select and some of that meat has more moisture in it. Prime or Choice graded meats that are grain fed are the only beef I'll eat.
 

GaryProtein

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For the juiciest of meats cook by sous vide to the desired doneness. Then sear.

That minimizes the time of high heat that causes contraction and keeps the meat in the 120-130 degF range for a longer time to allow the collagen to break down for tenderness.
 
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GaryProtein

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Never use low heat to start. The meat won't seal in the juices if you do that. Good heat shouldn't be to the point of turning the grille white/grey, but you need it fairly hot. Flames are not as hot as you'd think so they're not a big,deal.

That has been shown to be untrue many times. Searing first on a hot grill does not seal in anything and meat started at a lower temperature develops a dryer surface which allows high heat searing later to be much more effective which allows a more rare center to result.

Studies have been done where meat was weighed before and after cooking using different cooking temperature techniques and high heat searing in the beginning does not seal in juice.

You can look that up.
 

astrotoy

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For the juiciest of meats cook by sous vide to the desired doneness. Then sear.

That minimizes the time of high heat that causes contraction and keeps the meat in the 120-130 degF range for a longer time to allow the collagen to break down for tenderness.

Gary, we got a sous vide cooker for Christmas. Haven't used it yet. We don't have a barbeque grill. Can we sear it in a cast iron skillet after it is done? I saw this gadget that fits over a blow torch and it is supposed to sear also. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Larry
 

GaryProtein

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Gary, we got a sous vide cooker for Christmas. Haven't used it yet. We don't have a barbeque grill. Can we sear it in a cast iron skillet after it is done? I saw this gadget that fits over a blow torch and it is supposed to sear also. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Larry

You can definitely sear it on a cast iron (preferable) or other heavy pan or with your oven broiler set on high and pre-heated.

The blow torch works but has a tendency to scorch. The charcoal "chimney" fire starter with a grate over it is also good. You can get those for about $8 each plus a small grate as you would use for cooling a cake.
 

Folsom

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That has been shown to be untrue many times. Searing first on a hot grill does not seal in anything and meat started at a lower temperature develops a dryer surface which allows high heat searing later to be much more effective which allows a more rare center to result.

Studies have been done where meat was weighed before and after cooking using different cooking temperature techniques and high heat searing in the beginning does not seal in juice.

You can look that up.

I didn't say to sear. Searing is a pan thing, as I understand it. In fact I recommended an entirely opposite thing to searing. Searing is something people do before they cook it, on both sides. I specifically stated that if you have to turn it more than once you've failed.

Besides, I'll let you suggest what to do when I know you can cook 80 steaks in a few hours, perfectly, on a grill, by yourself.

The seal never happens as quickly as a "sear", in fact you may notice I said NOT TO MOVE THE STEAK even if you put it on too high of heat area of the grille, until it's reached a certain point because it'll break the magic.
 

Keith_W

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The seal never happens as quickly as a "sear", in fact you may notice I said NOT TO MOVE THE STEAK even if you put it on too high of heat area of the grille, until it's reached a certain point because it'll break the magic.

Sorry Folsom, but I have to agree with Gary here. Exposing meat to high temperature (via searing, grilling, blowtorching, etc) does not "seal" the meat. Juices will still leak out:


Also: this article.

As for not moving the steak, that is also incorrect. Heston Blumenthal recommends that you flip the steak every 15-20 seconds:

 

Folsom

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Congratulations. I did not suggest it either. It appears we're all in agreement, but I'm being told I'm wrong. You may notice I suggested finding an area that is suitable for the entire cooking process, but you may have to move it if it's too hot (just at the right time move it).

All I said was make sure it's on a higher heat area of the grille than you'd put a hamburger. Maybe the word high if confusing, but I use it because too low of heat that can be used for cooking chicken and hamburgers will not be high enough, so I call it medium heat.

Heston Blumenthal is cooking in a pan, with oil, that's very different. The topic is cooking on a grille.
 

RogerD

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If you like a pan seared steak,use a carbon steel or blue steel pan. The Malliard reaction with the steel pan browns or chars the steak to perfection....use butter.
 

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