Tube rolling with my Zanden 3000 preamp

flyer

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Dec 16, 2012
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I thought I would share some interesting experience.

Though being very satisfied (as much I liked a tad more bass) with my preamp, I thought I'd try what a different tube in the output stage could do. My preamp, a Zanden Model 3000, has effectively one double triode tube (type 5687WB) which is factory-supplied with a Philips JAN 5687WB brand.

I surfed the net and bought for 50 EUR another NOS tube from the Tungsol brand and inserted it in lieu of the Philips one.

I wasn't expecting such a change! In my case for the better, the bass is now exactly where I want it to be, the high is even sweeter and natural. I definitely experience this experiment as if I have been able to extract all there is to get from this excellent preamp (except remote control :rolleyes:).

Enjoy!
 

LL21

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Congrats, Flyer. I am not suprised. As a big, big fan of Zanden, i have personally found that tube rolling with Zanden makes a big difference. The Zanden 4-box digital is known for many great things, but not bass. But having tube rolled in the main DAC as well as the DAC PSU, the change in the bass was dramatic...particulary with the Mullard 6CA4 tubes and the Sylvania 6X4 tube in the PSU.

I had an Audio Aero La Source in my system and compared it with my DAC...both using the Esoteric VRDS Neo MkV that is in the Audio Aero, and the bass was the same coming thru both DACs...but with the stock old tubes Zanden bass was no contest. Zanden was gentle, soft. So agree with your findings on Zanden tube rolling. FWIW, I found further improvements in 'signal density' and solidity when i added HRS long damper on top of the Zanden DAC box (same as your preamp box), as well as HRS products on top of and under the DAC PSU...again the same i believe as your PSU. (pleased to say Zanden transport + DAC is even better bass than esoteric + Zanden DAC but perhaps given that they were designed for each other, that should not be a surprise.)

Enjoy! Great stuff and congrats again.
 

flez007

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I have just had my custom made preamp and my Jadis DPMC upgraded, I am about to listen to the results this same weekend, I agree that tube rolling is not just a great path to fine tune any given system but a lot of fun as well!
 

Uk Paul

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It's fascinating to me how valves can influence sonics so much, and in well designed circuits such as these combined with some old 50's/60's valves, can be pretty spectacular!
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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It's fascinating to me how valves can influence sonics so much, and in well designed circuits such as these combined with some old 50's/60's valves, can be pretty spectacular!

Esp. some Tele ECC803/802 or 801s. In a different class altogether :) Pay through the nose but you get what you pay for!
 

Uk Paul

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Esp. some Tele ECC803/802 or 801s. In a different class altogether :) Pay through the nose but you get what you pay for!

Yes, I've seen these go for big and also frankly crazy money here in England, consequently I have none;) but if I found some at even half decent price I'd snap them up.. Even the new Tesla 802s is a fine sounding tube, very clean..
 

flyer

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Dec 16, 2012
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Congrats, Flyer. I am not suprised. As a big, big fan of Zanden, i have personally found that tube rolling with Zanden makes a big difference. The Zanden 4-box digital is known for many great things, but not bass. But having tube rolled in the main DAC as well as the DAC PSU, the change in the bass was dramatic...particulary with the Mullard 6CA4 tubes and the Sylvania 6X4 tube in the PSU.

I had an Audio Aero La Source in my system and compared it with my DAC...both using the Esoteric VRDS Neo MkV that is in the Audio Aero, and the bass was the same coming thru both DACs...but with the stock old tubes Zanden bass was no contest. Zanden was gentle, soft. So agree with your findings on Zanden tube rolling. FWIW, I found further improvements in 'signal density' and solidity when i added HRS long damper on top of the Zanden DAC box (same as your preamp box), as well as HRS products on top of and under the DAC PSU...again the same i believe as your PSU. (pleased to say Zanden transport + DAC is even better bass than esoteric + Zanden DAC but perhaps given that they were designed for each other, that should not be a surprise.)

Enjoy! Great stuff and congrats again.

A bit off subject but what was your final conclusion on your comparison between the La Source and your Zanden digital combo?
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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A bit off subject but what was your final conclusion on your comparison between the La Source and your Zanden digital combo?

Is all a preference...the Audio Aero DAC sounded similar to ZAnden DAC when using the AA transport for both. The Zanden treble felt more supple, less hard to me. But otherwise similar. But add the Zanden transport and the Zanden took off and was far ahead (for me). It had more detail, instrument sepAration and tighter, stronger bass...but also showed far greater nuance. Bear in mind, the stock Zanden and the Zanden with NOS tubes and a lot of good quality isolation is quite different...the stock Zanden's signal feels weaker...and bass quite gentle. It took me a few months after owning it to start to get 'the formula' right...but once I did, I am happy and have no desire to look further seriously other than to learn.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Yes, I've seen these go for big and also frankly crazy money here in England, consequently I have none;) but if I found some at even half decent price I'd snap them up.. Even the new Tesla 802s is a fine sounding tube, very clean..

Glad you're having luck with the JJ/Tesla 802s. I wouldn't, nor haven't, recommended their ECC803/ECC83s.
 

granosalis

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2013
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I thought I would share some interesting experience.

Though being very satisfied (as much I liked a tad more bass) with my preamp, I thought I'd try what a different tube in the output stage could do. My preamp, a Zanden Model 3000, has effectively one double triode tube (type 5687WB) which is factory-supplied with a Philips JAN 5687WB brand.

I surfed the net and bought for 50 EUR another NOS tube from the Tungsol brand and inserted it in lieu of the Philips one.

I wasn't expecting such a change! In my case for the better, the bass is now exactly where I want it to be, the high is even sweeter and natural. I definitely experience this experiment as if I have been able to extract all there is to get from this excellent preamp (except remote control :rolleyes:).

Enjoy!

Hello,
I'm opening this thread again because I would like to share my experience regarding Zanden model 3000.
After reading your experience about tube rolling, I have ordered a Tung Sol JTL 5687 and I have exchanged the stock philips 5687 on my 3000.
The result was terrible. I have tested three different 5687 JTL from tungsol, with exactly the same results. The Tung Sol sounds unbalanced and all the magic fo the Zanden pre was gone. I have quickly replaced the standard philips and I'm happy again. Different story if we talk about the EZ81 on the power module. The stock EH is a big bottleneck in term of bass articulation and trasparency, so I suggest you to put back original 5687 and to change the EZ81 with a Mullard or Tesla (NOS).
Hope this help.

g.
 

flyer

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Dec 16, 2012
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What a suprise! I am sorry the result was not good in your case as my experience is quite the opposite.

I did not write that I had changed previously the stock EH in the power module with an Amperex tube. The result was a certainly an improvement but not in the same magnitude than changing the double triode, which is the reason I didn't report about it. On top, I had to wait about 100 hours before the improvement was clearly there.

I am wondering if a combination of factors (tubes) is at play here? Or a bad (batch of) tube? Or I was just lucky? or my ears are not yours? Who knows :confused:

Given the limited cost of an NOS tube I will follow you advice and see if I can get further improvement with a Mullard or Tesla in the power module. I am not going to put the Philips back in :b

Again, I am happy that through my post you eventually got a better sound from you preamp!!

kind regards
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Hello,
I'm opening this thread again because I would like to share my experience regarding Zanden model 3000.
After reading your experience about tube rolling, I have ordered a Tung Sol JTL 5687 and I have exchanged the stock philips 5687 on my 3000.
The result was terrible. I have tested three different 5687 JTL from tungsol, with exactly the same results. The Tung Sol sounds unbalanced and all the magic fo the Zanden pre was gone. I have quickly replaced the standard philips and I'm happy again. Different story if we talk about the EZ81 on the power module. The stock EH is a big bottleneck in term of bass articulation and trasparency, so I suggest you to put back original 5687 and to change the EZ81 with a Mullard or Tesla (NOS).
Hope this help.

g.

In my own experience which has some parallels, the stock JAN Phillips in the Zanden DAC is exceptionally good, lyrical, lilting, delicate and nuanced. And not much money. But it was far too microphonic...it took a few attempts with alternatives tubes, but eventually I found the Amperex 7308 matched and exceeded the same voicing...but with greater detail and without the microphony. I have heard Telefunken and Siemens are worth pursuing as well...Audio Exotics uses Siemens in their Zanden DAC.

But the change in the PSU tubes was transformational in allowing the DAC to deliver the same voice but with far greater 'signal density' and strength...and to keep up the density and strength in the bass which tightened up, became more propulsive while remaining comparably voiced to the Zanden mids and highs. An extremely good upgrade. Mullards and Sylvania NOS.
 
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LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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...Given the limited cost of an NOS tube I will follow you advice and see if I can get further improvement with a Mullard or Tesla in the power module. I am not going to put the Philips back in :b

Again, I am happy that through my post you eventually got a better sound from you preamp!!

kind regards

Definitely give it a shot...I have also had a great experience with this (Mullard 6CA4 and Sylvania 6X4) and would not go back at all...no loss, all gain. Its like a promising singer at 13 suddenly become 30...stronger voice, more confident, but basically the same talent, same voicing...just more sure-footed, better nuanced.
 

Uk Paul

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Sep 27, 2012
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NOS Mullard 6Ca4 (EZ81) (BVA)~Made in GB is my all time favourite rectifier in the CF DAC, wonderful balance and natural.. As Lloyd says, do try one, they cost comparatively little.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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NOS Mullard 6Ca4 (EZ81) (BVA)~Made in GB is my all time favourite rectifier in the CF DAC, wonderful balance and natural.. As Lloyd says, do try one, they cost comparatively little.

wow...good to know! I got a recommendation from either Brent Jessee or Andy at Andy's Vintage tubes...never looked back. but always good to know from others as well!
 

flyer

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Dec 16, 2012
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My Mullard is on its way :D

Just another question; do you guys switch off the power supply module each time you switch off the preamp or you leave it on all the time? I noticed that the tube in the power module turns red when the preamp is on but does not light up when the preamp is switched off. The latter makes me think that the tube is not being used at that time so I can leave the power module switched on.

Am I right or is the glowing of the tube not a good indication of it being used or not?
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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My Mullard is on its way :D

Just another question; do you guys switch off the power supply module each time you switch off the preamp or you leave it on all the time? I noticed that the tube in the power module turns red when the preamp is on but does not light up when the preamp is switched off. The latter makes me think that the tube is not being used at that time so I can leave the power module switched on.

Am I right or is the glowing of the tube not a good indication of it being used or not?

Great on Mullard...pls let us know how it goes. As for leaving the Preamp PSU...I do not know. I turn my DAC PSU (very similar to yours) OFF when not in use. That said, I leave the Transport PSU ON all the time, as per the Zanden owner's manual which states that the Transport PSU keeps certain electronics warmed and ready even when the Transport is off.

I cannot recall if the DAC Manual states that the PSU can be left on...but with a tube in it, I prefer to keep it off anyway as I suspect there is a minimal amount of electricity running thru it even when DAC main module is off.

Good luck.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Just ordered NOS Mullard 1950s 6CA4 from Brent Jessee...its been 3 years since I put mine in...and its time. I also decided not to get Sylvania 6X4...but to go with Brent Jessee's recommendation of a Mullard 1950's 6X4...he is adding his copper damper rings which apparently help damp and keep the tube cool...be interesting to experiment as the Zanden responds extremely well to isolation and EAT tube dampers wont fit on 6CA4 as they are just a touch too narrow.
 

flyer

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Dec 16, 2012
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Hi LL, The Mullard was a bit beter, especially in the bass, compared to the Amperex I originally had.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Hi LL, The Mullard was a bit beter, especially in the bass, compared to the Amperex I originally had.
thanks! good to know.
 

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