Audio Research REF 10 phono

Elliot G.

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ARC announces today a REF 10 phono section two chassis phono preamplifier.
30k
 

XV-1

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XV-1

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MylesBAstor

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Does anyone else find the stock loading options rather lean?

I wonder how the custom loading works?
 

XV-1

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Does anyone else find the stock loading options rather lean?

I wonder how the custom loading works?

You ask ARC to add a specific loading you want for the optional custom load.
 

MylesBAstor

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You ask ARC to add a specific loading you want for the optional custom load.

Then they really need to add more loading values so one can get closer to the "correct" value. Right now it's a shot in the dark.
 

mep

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How 'fine' do you think the loading options need to be since you consider the loading options now to be 'course?'
 

MylesBAstor

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How 'fine' do you think the loading options need to be since you consider the loading options now to be 'course?'

The loads as listed: 50-100-200-500-1000 ohms. Don't you think they're a bit coarse considering probably most with the cartridges that will be used with the ARC phono will need loading between 50-150 or 200 at max ohms? Right now I'm using a cartridge where 100 ohms I think is too low and 180 ohms is too high. (The Allnic actually allowed for 16 loads though it also affected the gain.) I'd love some intermediate values between the two. I really think that designers are missing the boat on this one. We argue about SRA, azimuth, phase, etc. and loading is an afterthought.

Personally as I've said, only JC had it right with the Vendetta that allowed for adjustable loading <200 ohms. Based on my experiences with the Vendetta, you need to load down to the ohm.
 

mep

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I wonder how many cartridge manufacturers think their loading below 200 ohms needs to be dialed in within 1 ohm? It does make sense that as you load down below 100 ohms you are having a greater impact on the sound of a cartridge. I think once you get much over 500 ohms you have essentially unloaded the cartridge. David Wilson wrote the best article I ever read on cartridge loading and its importance a long time ago in TAS. That was back in the day when *everybody* thought every MC cartridge should be 'loaded' at 47K. David essentially was telling everyone that believed 47K was the correct 'loading' value that they were dead wrong. The bottom line is that David was right many, many years ago.

Myles has hit on this before, but back in the days when people had marginal gain to play with coming from a tube phono section, loading down a cartridge was also throwing gain and dynamics out the window which were already marginal to begin with. People assumed the dead sound they were hearing when their cartridge was loaded was because of the loading and not the marginal gain and thus the preference for 47K 'loading.'
 

XV-1

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The loads as listed: 50-100-200-500-1000 ohms. Don't you think they're a bit coarse considering probably most with the cartridges that will be used with the ARC phono will need loading between 50-150 or 200 at max ohms? Right now I'm using a cartridge where 100 ohms I think is too low and 180 ohms is too high. (The Allnic actually allowed for 16 loads though it also affected the gain.) I'd love some intermediate values between the two. I really think that designers are missing the boat on this one. We argue about SRA, azimuth, phase, etc. and loading is an afterthought.

Personally as I've said, only JC had it right with the Vendetta that allowed for adjustable loading <200 ohms. Based on my experiences with the Vendetta, you need to load down to the ohm.

Not really. Lyra for the Atlas has a min load of 284 and with 150pf, around 500ohms. That is where it sounds better with my tube and ss phono in my system.

Does no it matter how many options they give, we always want more. :D
 

MylesBAstor

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I wonder how many cartridge manufacturers think their loading below 200 ohms needs to be dialed in within 1 ohm? It does make sense that as you load down below 100 ohms you are having a greater impact on the sound of a cartridge. I think once you get much over 500 ohms you have essentially unloaded the cartridge. David Wilson wrote the best article I ever read on cartridge loading and its importance a long time ago in TAS. That was back in the day when *everybody* thought every MC cartridge should be 'loaded' at 47K. David essentially was telling everyone that believed 47K was the correct 'loading' value that they were dead wrong. The bottom line is that David was right many, many years ago.

Myles has hit on this before, but back in the days when people had marginal gain to play with coming from a tube phono section, loading down a cartridge was also throwing gain and dynamics out the window which were already marginal to begin with. People assumed the dead sound they were hearing when their cartridge was loaded was because of the loading and not the marginal gain and thus the preference for 47K 'loading.'

How many have ever experimented or tried? :) Not any based on my conversations in the rooms at CES. But there are a few, take Ron Sutherland for instance, that would be interested in trying. He even suggested he could make a pot to go with his phono stages (since he uses removable boards) and once you find the right value, could just swap in the right value. I like that idea.
 

MylesBAstor

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Not really. Lyra for the Atlas has a min load of 284 and with 150pf, around 500ohms. That is where it sounds better with my tube and ss phono in my system.

Does no it matter how many options they give, we always want more. :D

Not with the Doshi in my system. Best loaded at 100 ohms. (Actually just confirmed that in our listening session today because forgot to reset loading when swapping cartridges in and out during a group session :) ).
 

Elliot G.

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Not with the Doshi in my system. Best loaded at 100 ohms. (Actually just confirmed that in our listening session today because forgot to reset loading when swapping cartridges in and out during a group session :) ).
I don't know the answer to loading it that closely however I have been told by my "sources" that this unit is going to blow away all the analog guys. It will be a bigger difference than a REF 10 or REF 40 to a REF 5 and will make your turntable and cartridge sound just otherworldly.
I ordered one for a client this week and I cant wait to hear what it does with his Goldfinger/Graham arm combo into a REF10/REF750 combo.
My loading expertise is limited since I mostly liked my cartridges run into the 47k input however I look fowarded to trying the different combinations.
Myles perhaps you could write a note to ARC with suggestions?
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
11,236
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New York City
I don't know the answer to loading it that closely however I have been told by my "sources" that this unit is going to blow away all the analog guys. It will be a bigger difference than a REF 10 or REF 40 to a REF 5 and will make your turntable and cartridge sound just otherworldly.
I ordered one for a client this week and I cant wait to hear what it does with his Goldfinger/Graham arm combo into a REF10/REF750 combo.
My loading expertise is limited since I mostly liked my cartridges run into the 47k input however I look fowarded to trying the different combinations.
Myles perhaps you could write a note to ARC with suggestions?

Next time I see Warren or Dave! :)

The question is not whether loading is important; the question is how exact loading should we load? BTW how many people do you know have experimented with very exact loading? It certainly also is a measurable, observable and audible phenomena.

47 K was also preferable with many tube phono sections in the past because of inadequate circuit gain that resulted in loss of dynamics, frequency response, dynamics, etc.
 
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