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Thread: the Durand Record Weight; love it!

  1. #11
    [Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
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    The Walker at $1,700 is now a bargain.

  2. #12
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    I like my aircraft grade aluminum record weight that was machined from solid billet aluminum. I think it cost me $50. Does the Durand record weight come in an ultra fancy museum quality wooden box like his tonearms do?

  3. #13
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MylesBAstor View Post
    Mike:

    Did you ever try the Shun Mook or Hi-Fi Tuning wood record weights?
    not specifically in my memory; but it's possible.

  4. #14
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I like my aircraft grade aluminum record weight that was machined from solid billet aluminum. I think it cost me $50. Does the Durand record weight come in an ultra fancy museum quality wooden box like his tonearms do?
    it does come in a fancy box.

    as far as solid aluminum billet; the idea of a record weight is to bleed off resonance from the record so it's not part of the sound.. simple mass will only change the resonance, not bleed it off. most record weights have dulled the sound to my ears. the trick is to bleed resonance while not doing any tonal shift.

    obviously every platter and tt design can present a different challenge to controling the record. so likely record weights must be judged in specific contexts.

    vacuum hold down needs to be engineered so it retains livelyness and tonal balance. it can potentially deaden the sound just like many record weights.

    every approach to keeping the record from slipping has the same challenges.

    have you compared your solid aluminum record weight to other types?

  5. #15
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! rockitman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    have you compared your solid aluminum record weight to other types?
    owning a variety of weights and clamps. I have a beefy Aluminum billet weight. It worked pretty well until I tried a Stillpoints LP1. That design does bleed off resonance/vibration. I imagine the Durand is doing the same thing using a different implementation. Was this puck (developed/voiced) to the NVS/Telos combo ?

  6. #16
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockitman View Post
    owning a variety of weights and clamps. I have a beefy Aluminum billet weight. It worked pretty well until I tried a Stillpoints LP1. That design does bleed off resonance/vibration. I imagine the Durand is doing the same thing using a different implementation. Was this puck (developed/voiced) to the NVS/Telos combo ?
    no. although he does frequently use my room for testing he also uses other's too.

    Joel has at least 2 turntables, there are other local tt's he's tried it on, if you look on the Durand website i think there is a picture from 2013 CES where it's used on (what looks like to me as) a Clearaudio like yours.

    my perspective is that any very high resolution tt/arm/cart combo will get a similar benefit. but since i've not done the listening to various combo's i'm just making an educated guess.
    Last edited by Mike Lavigne; 04-28-2013 at 04:02 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    it does come in a fancy box.
    I just knew it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    as far as solid aluminum billet; the idea of a record weight is to bleed off resonance from the record so it's not part of the sound.. simple mass will only change the resonance, not bleed it off. most record weights have dulled the sound to my ears. the trick is to bleed resonance while not doing any tonal shift.
    I would love to see an in-depth technical discussion of the resonances involved in playing back an LP. I thought the main purpose of a record weight or clamp was to cause an intimate contact relationship between the LP and the platter which could prevent resonances that could occur between the two if they weren't making intimate contact. I personally don't understand how any record weight or clamp could drain away a resonance from an LP when the weight is centered over the label of the LP. That would infer that all of the resonances that exist in an LP drain toward the center of an LP and the record weight or clamp could somehow dissipate all of the resonances by sitting on the label.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    have you compared your solid aluminum record weight to other types?
    No, Mike, I haven't. I used to have a VPI TNT before I bought the SP-10 MKII and the VPI had its own screw down clamp which was pretty effective at keeping the LP in contact with the platter except for warped records which I don't tend to play anyway.

    Billet aluminum isn't cheap and machining costs are cheap either. But if I can buy a machined record weight made from aircraft-grade billet aluminum for $50, it's hard to understand how any record weight could cost $3500. That is more money than many people have invested in their entire LP setup. I thought the Still Points LP weight was expensive at around $500, but now I see that is a relative bargain. Again, I would love to see a discussion about the physics behind how exotic record weights are able to drain away resonances from an LP when they sit on the label which has no grooves.

  8. #18
    WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)/Member Sponsor [Technical Expert] garylkoh's Avatar
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    The analog playback system as a whole has a very simple problem statement, but because of the simpleness of the problem statement, is extremely difficult to solve.

    The problem statement is: to transduce a physical shape into an electrical signal.

    The turntable has to deliver this physical shape (turn the record groove) in as stable a manner as possible. The stylus has to trace this physical shape as accurately as possible. The tonearm has to hold the cartridge (holding the stylus) as steadily as possible above this physical groove.

    To trace this physical shape perfectly (which is made of extremely delicate vinyl), the ideal is a stylus of zero mass (zero momentum and zero inertia) and zero friction.

    For just playing the LP to be the cause of vinyl resonance and record slippage, the stylus would have to have low enough friction to grab the record as it turns, and push the record from side to side as it attempts to trace the groove. Such a stylus would have to have high mass and high friction - enough to iron the grooves in the vinyl flat within a play or so. Assuming that the stylus is low enough in mass that it doesn't cause your LP to turn silent within a couple of plays (or degrade your LP at every play) then the problem is elsewhere.

    Any record weight or clamp (unless the turntable is designed with one) fixes problems (sometimes shows up problems) inherent in the turntable design.
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  9. #19
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    How does the record weight or clamp "fix" the problems inherent in the turntable design other than keeping the record in contact with the platter?

  10. #20
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    I would love to see an in-depth technical discussion of the resonances involved in playing back an LP. I thought the main purpose of a record weight or clamp was to cause an intimate contact relationship between the LP and the platter which could prevent resonances that could occur between the two if they weren't making intimate contact. I personally don't understand how any record weight or clamp could drain away a resonance from an LP when the weight is centered over the label of the LP. That would infer that all of the resonances that exist in an LP drain toward the center of an LP and the record weight or clamp could somehow dissipate all of the resonances by sitting on the label.
    i'm no engineer or even very technically informed. i can only observe cause and effect. my oberservations typcially show me results of use of a record weight is loss of energy. record clamps purpose designed as a system for specific turntables are different than third party record weights that i have heard used. so let's leave record clamps out of this as they serve a slightly different function to typically 'bend' the record or put it under a leveraged pressure. as opposed to a record weight that dampens by loading.

    why does a typical record weight cause loss of energy? i'll take a stab at it......maybe typical record weights simply change the frequency and reduce the energy input to the stylus. consider an automobile suspension. it's designed to operate based on the specific designed carrying capacity. if it's too light it will be overly stiff and the wheels will lift off the ground on bumps. if it's overloaded it will bottom out on big bumps and become overdamped in reacting to changes in the road. but if it's within specific design weight envelope the suspension will operate correctly. also; the stability of the cargo (what it's made of or how it's built) can effect how stable the ride is.

    how the record weight interfaces with the center of the record, the spindle, and then the materials all will effect the result sonically like shocks and tires affect the ride of the car.

    we listen to results of anything we do to load the record and judge what we hear. i happen to really like what i'm hearing from the Durand Record Weight. i can't really argue the technical merits. i can only report what i hear and my previous experience with similar products.

    No, Mike, I haven't. I used to have a VPI TNT before I bought the SP-10 MKII and the VPI had its own screw down clamp which was pretty effective at keeping the LP in contact with the platter except for warped records which I don't tend to play anyway.

    Billet aluminum isn't cheap and machining costs are cheap either. But if I can buy a machined record weight made from aircraft-grade billet aluminum for $50, it's hard to understand how any record weight could cost $3500. That is more money than many people have invested in their entire LP setup. I thought the Still Points LP weight was expensive at around $500, but now I see that is a relative bargain. Again, I would love to see a discussion about the physics behind how exotic record weights are able to drain away resonances from an LP when they sit on the label which has no grooves.
    i'm not getting into value. that's for everyone to judge for themselves. i'll only say we have all accepted a $90k turntable as no big deal. we celebrate every new member of that club. so this is not that big a deal.

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