Safety of eating fish/Toxins

amirm · Apr 25, 2013

Hi guys. I am thinking of finally trying to learn to fish this summer. Have had a fishing boat for a number of years but this year, I am going to hit the (Puget) Sound and try to catch both bottom fish (flounder, etc) and Salmon. In the middle of my research on how to catch the bottom fish, I landed on a number of blogs, etc. talking about high amount of pollution in resident salt water fish due to pollution from urban areas. The place where I will be fishing is 20 to 30 miles from nearest major city/dumps but the fish apparently still has fair amount of PCB and such. I found a very detailed report that measured the toxin levels. It only reports on the amounts and not what is safe and what is not.

I recall hearing about a Harvard report that said eating fish does enough good to outweigh the risks here.

Has anyone studied this area and can summarize/point me to a report/article that stipulates the thresholds of various toxins and such for safe eating? I know it is not a black and white topic but like to get educated before I spend big $$$ investing in major upgrade of my fishing electronics.

treitz3 · Apr 25, 2013

Hello, Amir. While I can't comment on the amount of toxins within the fish, I can say that I have eaten quite a few of the flounder and I have no noticable dain bremage

. Just North of Gig Harbor is where we were fishing. We were actually able to catch 254 of them on a single outing when I was a kid. That's a lot of fish. I do not, however, think that they were actually flounder. They were a cousin of the flounder, a bottom feeder and looked just like a flounder with its eyes on one side [on top]. About the only thing they lacked was the color of the scales. They were kind of grey/mud color and it's been so long, I have forgotten the actual name of that fish.

Word of warning - be prepared to catch some dogfish and some octopus. You'll know it when they hit the line as you would swear up and down that you just snagged a Marlin or a Great White! Alright, I'm exaggerating a bit but they sure do put up a fight. My granddad used to get so mad at the dogfish, he would take a baseball bat to them just so he wouldn't have to catch them again.

My apologies for a somewhat off topic post, you brought up some good memories! The last time I was out there, Mt. St. Helen's erupted as we were crossing over the Tacoma Narrows bridge.

Tom

garylkoh · Apr 25, 2013

I have eaten fugu for years without any ill effects.....

puroagave · Apr 25, 2013

Armin, i've been an avid fisherman all my life but my experience is limited to the pacific southwest, baja mexico to central america. i take six-pack charters to local socal islands like catalina and san clemente and target inshore species like white seabass, calico bass, bonito and yellow tail. as a rule of thumb, offshore (migratory species) have lowest level of toxins and mercury like tuna, albacore, dorado (dolphin fish). i avoid eating any local caught bottom dwellers like halibut, flounder, sole, rock fish and ling cod - even tho they're all great eating.

join up at allcoast.com and bdoutdoors.com (formerly bloodydecks) this topic has been discussed to death, and both sites cover pacific northwest boating/fishing topics very well - both great resources and the regulars are patient with noob questions.

puroagave · Apr 25, 2013

garylkoh said:
I have eaten fugu for years without any ill effects.....

if you go to the 'right' sushi-ya in Japan, the itamae will 'enhance' the experience with just enough poison to numb your lips.

garylkoh · Apr 25, 2013

puroagave said:
if you go to the 'right' sushi-ya in Japan, the itamae will 'enhance' the experience with just enough poison to numb your lips.

Last time I was in Japan, the itamae was telling me that the fugu in Japan now comes "without poison". Seems that the fish accumulate the poison eating anemone and coral. They develop a resistance to the toxin, but unfortunately we mammals do not. Farmed fugu don't get to eat anemone and hence lack the poison - so it's no longer an adventure

cjfrbw · Apr 25, 2013

I can't stand to eat fish. Can't stand the fish, can't stand the taste, can't stand the smell, ICK ICK ICK! When I was in professional school, my elderly landlord on Friday mornings would get up at 6AM and make gefilte fish, which woke me up like an alarm clock and made me put in something to plug my nose. My parent would wolf down horrid anchovies like they were candy, and everybody in my family likes fish.

I gather that I am the genetic variant who would survive when everybody else in the clan croaks from fish toxins. However, I do take fish oil tablets. Don't like the smell and taste of them, either, but I can get past it to get whatever fishy benefits they are supposed to confer.

Of course, fishing and hunting are fundamental human skills and hobbies that confer their own pleasures, if I ever fished it would just be to toss them back. I have been trying to get into bird watching, which is like stalking and hunting without the kill.

puroagave · Apr 25, 2013

garylkoh said:
Last time I was in Japan, the itamae was telling me that the fugu in Japan now comes "without poison". Seems that the fish accumulate the poison eating anemone and coral. They develop a resistance to the toxin, but unfortunately we mammals do not. Farmed fugu don't get to eat anemone and hence lack the poison - so it's no longer an adventure

how times change. the training involved to become a certifed itamae, licesened to handle and serve fugu was a big deal. they had to keep the entrails in the resturant under lock and key and then disposed by special officials. ive had the five-course tasting menu a couple of times as a guest, it was great but not spectacular.

amirm · Apr 26, 2013

treitz3 said:
Hello, Amir. While I can't comment on the amount of toxins within the fish, I can say that I have eaten quite a few of the flounder and I have no noticable dain bremage . Just North of Gig Harbor is where we were fishing. We were actually able to catch 254 of them on a single outing when I was a kid. That's a lot of fish. I do not, however, think that they were actually flounder. They were a cousin of the flounder, a bottom feeder and looked just like a flounder with its eyes on one side [on top]. About the only thing they lacked was the color of the scales. They were kind of grey/mud color and it's been so long, I have forgotten the actual name of that fish.

Wow, it is a small world Tom because where I will be fishing will be just on the other side of Gig Harbor! There are indeed many varieties of Flounder/flat fish. The common ones where I will be fishing I believe are Starry Flounder and English Sole.

Word of warning - be prepared to catch some dogfish and some octopus. You'll know it when they hit the line as you would swear up and down that you just snagged a Marlin or a Great White! Alright, I'm exaggerating a bit but they sure do put up a fight. My granddad used to get so mad at the dogfish, he would take a baseball bat to them just so he wouldn't have to catch them again.

Well, I am already an expert at catching Dogfish! Every time we tried to catch Salmon, we caught dog fish instead

. For those who don't know what we are talking about this is a type of shark that bites at anything in Puget Sound. While I have heard some people eat it, it is considered a pest and speaking of toxins, has good bit of it in its flesh. Here is someone catching one:

I should add that the only Salmon we have caught was right outside of Gig Harbor.

My apologies for a somewhat off topic post, you brought up some good memories! The last time I was out there, Mt. St. Helen's erupted as we were crossing over the Tacoma Narrows bridge.

Tom

You were very much on topic Tom per above. We cross the Narrows bridge every time we go there and it is the sign that tells one you are getting away from population. The new bridge is beautiful and in my opinion may even be prettier than Golden Gate bridge in San Francisco. Here is a quick picture of it online:

amirm · Apr 26, 2013

puroagave said:
Armin, i've been an avid fisherman all my life but my experience is limited to the pacific southwest, baja mexico to central america. i take six-pack charters to local socal islands like catalina and san clemente and target inshore species like white seabass, calico bass, bonito and yellow tail. as a rule of thumb, offshore (migratory species) have lowest level of toxins and mercury like tuna, albacore, dorado (dolphin fish). i avoid eating any local caught bottom dwellers like halibut, flounder, sole, rock fish and ling cod - even tho they're all great eating.

Great to see others in the hobby. What you say is what I have learned so far and hence my question about safety of inshore fish. We are in south sound and getting to the ocean is a long drive or even much longer boat drive. And it is also much riskier given the nature of the seas here. I am not that much into boating to make that trek

. So was hoping to focus on the waters around us.

join up at allcoast.com and bdoutdoors.com (formerly bloodydecks) this topic has been discussed to death, and both sites cover pacific northwest boating/fishing topics very well - both great resources and the regulars are patient with noob questions.

Thanks. I will check them out.

GaryProtein · Apr 26, 2013

garylkoh said:
I have eaten fugu for years without any ill effects.....

I think you can only have an ill effect from eating fugu once!

Amir, I am not at all familiar with fishing in your locale with regard to pollution, but as a general rule it is best to eat fish whose body less the head and tail can fit on your plate, no larger. The reason being that larger fish are closer to the top of the food chain. Being so, they have eating smaller fish that have eaten smaller fish, that have eaten smaller fish and so on, which means there has been an accumulation of pollutants from the eaten fish's bodies in the larger predatory fish.

amirm · Apr 26, 2013

GaryProtein said:
Amir, I am not at all familiar with fishing in your locale with regard to pollution, but as a general rule it is best to eat fish whose body less the head and tail can fit on your plate, no larger. The reason being that larger fish are closer to the top of the food chain. Being so, they have eating smaller fish that have eaten smaller fish, that have eaten smaller fish and so on, which means there has been an accumulation of pollutants from the eaten fish's bodies in the larger predatory fish.

Funny you should say that as that is what I just read in a thread from the forum puroagave suggested! It is easy to do with regards the flat fish I am going after as the smaller ones are easier to find and catch. And here I was trying to learn how to find the bigger ones!

Steve Williams · Apr 26, 2013

I'm out when it come to eating bottom feeders such as flounder, tapia, catfish etc

jazdoc · Apr 26, 2013

As a radiologist, I find that humans are terrible at assessing absolute and relative risk. A roundtrip in your car from Seattle to your favorite Puget Sound fishing hole almost certainly carries a significantly greater risk of death than ingesting thousands of pounds of fish taken from the Sound. That's without accounting for any alcohol intake that may accompany a fishing expeditation. Yet we all virtually ignore the first risk and concern ourselves with the second.

While data on foodborne risks are limited, it is estimated that most food-related disease results from harmful bacteria such as Campylobacter and Salmonella - and most foodborne illnesses result from inappropriate food handling at home.

Data from the United States shows that there is an approximate annual probability of dying from foodborne illness of 3.6 in 100,000. This is 7 times greater than the risk of dying from tuberculosis in the US each year and 100 times greater than the risk of dying from floods. On the other hand, this risk is 78 times lower than the probability of dying from heart disease, 57 times lower than dying from cancer and 4 times lower than dying from motor vehicle accidents. Even the mere act of eating food poses an annual risk of dying from choking of 5 in one million. Of course, the risk of not eating means 100% probability of dying!

http://www.eufic.org/article/en/artid/risk-activities-into-perspective/

MylesBAstor · Apr 26, 2013

Steve raises a good point about fish that eat on the bottom of bays and rivers where many toxins settle.

Of all the meat without feet out there, it appears that the ones to be wary of are farm/pond raised fish [salmon for instance] since they were shown to have high levels of PCBs.

Then one might be wary of fatty fish since many carcinogens/toxins/teratogens are hydrophobic and tend to concentrate in adipose tissue

Mercury in tuna, swordfish, etc. In fact, I've known more than one person who's been told to cut back on their sushi ingestion due to high mercury levels. (not to mention the issue with pregnant women.) Perhaps the *best* recommendation is to diversify the types of fish you eat.

I'm also curious about all the fish we bring in from China.

danielk141 · Apr 26, 2013

Here's a document listing mercury levels.
I consider mercury my #1 concern, in fish....

http://www.arhp.org/publications-an...guide-for-clinicians/fish-and-health/evidence

Matt193 · Apr 26, 2013

Amir, I found a fish consumption advisory for you and your area here. Hopefully it answers a few of your questions.

cjfrbw · Apr 26, 2013

How about Asian Carp? Don't even know why they bother with the bows, the fish are jumping into the boat. Apparently, the yields are so high, they are selling the fish back to China for food.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc-e8EGkLMo

Soundproof · Apr 27, 2013

I don't eat anything that comes from China, and make efforts to find out the source when attempts are made to obscure that it comes from China. (Feed for cattle, fish-farms, etc. in many instances have significant China-sourced components in it. Make the effort to find out what people are using.)

That said, I do eat fish, and a lot of it. I fish myself (lots of trout in the rivers and lakes where I live), and buy from three fantastic fishmongers that are along the route I drive a couple of times a week. When I lived right by the sea for nine years, I would fish cod, mackerel, sea trout and other fish right from my pier, or else don a mask and snorkel and go out to a little island where I would collect oysters, blue mussel (moule) and Coquilles St. Jacques for meals.
Check official seafood advisories for local conditions (and they can change, so keep checking).

One of the fishmongers I buy from sells farm-salmon that has only eaten marine food and oils. (Most farm raised salmon are vegetarians (cheap Chinese food a lot of it) and are given a couple of weeks of marine food at the end of their lives, to raise the Omega content to where it barely registers.)

I've never been to the hospital, never been seriously ill or sick, I don't need glasses, am nearing 60 and have spent the past few days with a chainsaw cutting down trees and lugging them about. I think my diet of fish and meat has contributed to that, but I am picky as to what I buy or where I fish/hunt.

I'm not averse to bottom feeders (what would happen to my Lobster-count then?). I prefer fish that have oil in them, or cod, cod tongues, roe, etc where I know the source. I eat Tuna, swordfish, etc - but not frequently, due to the possibility of a higher mercury content in these.

BTW - there is nothing like fishing, whether at sea or in lakes and rivers. Highly recommended, and preparing your own meal from fresh fish is a joy.

amirm · Apr 27, 2013

Matt193 said:
Amir, I found a fish consumption advisory for you and your area here. Hopefully it answers a few of your questions.

Thank you, thank you, thank you

. The report was just one link away: http://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/334-098.pdf

Can't believe I did not find it in all of my searching. It shows that eating the bottom flatfish I am interested in is actually lower in toxins and such than Salmon with no restrictions in our marine area! And that one can eat all that one wants. This is the opposite of what I thought was going on from reading the online reports and such.

Safety of eating fish/Toxins

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