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Thread: Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

  1. #701
    Addicted to Best! theophile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    Yes. I realised, but asking audiophiles what constitutes proper isolation or best isolation practice, is in broad terms like asking a cross section of the populace what they think is in their best interest.
    Turntable/Arm - Yamaha GT 2000/Yamaha YSA-1
    Cartridge - Soundsmith The Voice(Ebony)
    Phono stage - Moon LP 5.3
    Preamp - Hornshoppe The Truth
    Speakers - KRK Expose E8B Mastering Monitors

    Turntable support counts as another component. 21 Clearaudio Magix and more.

  2. #702
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    For best practice: look to what they are doing on the nano scale scientific industries. It is all applicable to High End vinyl replay.
    IMHO it is applicable, but you should have a large knowledge and experience with your turntable to know how to apply it. Turntables, rooms and high end systems differ too much to allow a simple scientific approach. I would expect that vintage rim driven turntables having large motors with high torque have different requirements from low power belt driven turntables.
    Under construction around a pair of Wilson XLF's , the Forsell Air Force One, the ARC Phono 2SE and the DCS Vivaldi 2.0 stack : ARC REF40 + ARC REF250, TA OPUS MM2 +TA XL digital, TA XL gen V power cables and CenterStage feet ...

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    IMHO it is applicable, but you should have a large knowledge and experience with your turntable to know how to apply it. Turntables, rooms and high end systems differ too much to allow a simple scientific approach. I would expect that vintage rim driven turntables having large motors with high torque have different requirements from low power belt driven turntables.
    I agree. The other factor that is universally overlooked is the center of gravity.
    Turntable/Arm - Yamaha GT 2000/Yamaha YSA-1
    Cartridge - Soundsmith The Voice(Ebony)
    Phono stage - Moon LP 5.3
    Preamp - Hornshoppe The Truth
    Speakers - KRK Expose E8B Mastering Monitors

    Turntable support counts as another component. 21 Clearaudio Magix and more.

  4. #704
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    I agree. The other factor that is universally overlooked is the center of gravity.
    the better active devices such as the TS series Herzans include auto leveling as it is required for optimal performance.

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    the better active devices such as the TS series Herzans include auto leveling as it is required for optimal performance.
    Not the same thing. I'd be willing to bet that the Herzian would operate more optimally if the COG of the component was exactly aligned with the dimensional center of the Herzian top plate. The easiest way to tell is to try it. I determine the COG by using a half-round molding and I move the component around until I reach the balance point along right angle axis. I mark this on a tape on the sides and position the turntable as exactly as possible. It is easy to try and easy to hear the difference with isolation platforms.

    I do realise that the Herzian due to the active nature of it mechanism is vastly different to passive solutions in practice, but as I said it is easy to find the very close approximate COG and it might be worth experimenting.
    Turntable/Arm - Yamaha GT 2000/Yamaha YSA-1
    Cartridge - Soundsmith The Voice(Ebony)
    Phono stage - Moon LP 5.3
    Preamp - Hornshoppe The Truth
    Speakers - KRK Expose E8B Mastering Monitors

    Turntable support counts as another component. 21 Clearaudio Magix and more.

  6. #706
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theophile View Post
    Not the same thing. I'd be willing to bet that the Herzian would operate more optimally if the COG of the component was exactly aligned with the dimensional center of the Herzian top plate. The easiest way to tell is to try it. I determine the COG by using a half-round molding and I move the component around until I reach the balance point along right angle axis. I mark this on a tape on the sides and position the turntable as exactly as possible. It is easy to try and easy to hear the difference with isolation platforms.

    I do realise that the Herzian due to the active nature of it mechanism is vastly different to passive solutions in practice, but as I said it is easy to find the very close approximate COG and it might be worth experimenting.
    I agree.....in theory. and I like your method for finding COG.

    my approximately 100 pound direct drive turntable is exactly symmetric in shape; and my 2 tone arms weigh the same, the cartridges are slightly different weight. I center the turntable side to side and front to back within 1/16th of an inch on the top plate of the Herzan. the center of the 50 pound platter is exactly the center of it's three legs/pods.

    I'm not claiming that the center of my turntable is perfectly the center of gravity......but functionally it is pretty close. possibly the weight of the tone arms might be slightly to the rear of the turntable. but I doubt whether one could ever hear the difference between the performance of the Herzan as it is now, and if I were to try and adjust for the front to rear weight bias.

    OTOH non direct drive turntables are not close to symmetric in shape or weight; most have motors or flywheels that tend to pull the center of gravity to one side to a significant degree. a few are three motor designs that potentially could get more symmetric. I would not be surprised to see a performance difference were someone do the center of gravity calculation and then make adjustments. and it would not surprise me to see some turntables hanging over the side in some of those cases.

    and.....likely heavy phono cables might be more culpable in terms of performance compromise to decoupling efforts than center of gravity issues. neutralizing those might be more beneficial.
    Last edited by Mike Lavigne; 12-26-2016 at 07:55 PM.
    Wave Kin. NVS tt, AS-2000 ord. (2) Durand Telos (1-Sapphire) arms, CA Gold Stat, Ort Anna carts, -2- Studer A-820 RTR (1/4" + 1/2").*MSB Select II dac w/33 Femto clock + mono powerbases, SGM serv + (2x) 30 tb NAS. *darT NHB-18NS w/2 phonos, King-Cello. *dart 458 mono blocks. EA MM7. *Equi=tech 10WQ, (10) Abso Fid PC & (2) Evo Acou PC. *Evo Acou 12' TRSC and 8m + 1.25m 'zeel' ic's, *Tripoint Troy Sig + Elite, Entreq Sil Tel + Pos, *Herzan TS-140 & TS-150, Wave Kin. A10 U8's + 2NS, Adona GTX.

  7. #707
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    upon further thinking on this center of gravity issue and active devices; as I recall the Herzan representative 'Whitney Reed' told us at one point that assuming the gear is within the weight spec for the TS unit; center of gravity did not matter. if the platform was level the performance would not be compromised. possibly he may have added that if the gear was so out of balance that the top plate would not level then that would be an issue.

    I cannot argue this point, I am simply relating the feedback as I recall it.

    and thinking more about it; if stuff needed to be perfectly centered weight wise, why would it need leveling?
    Wave Kin. NVS tt, AS-2000 ord. (2) Durand Telos (1-Sapphire) arms, CA Gold Stat, Ort Anna carts, -2- Studer A-820 RTR (1/4" + 1/2").*MSB Select II dac w/33 Femto clock + mono powerbases, SGM serv + (2x) 30 tb NAS. *darT NHB-18NS w/2 phonos, King-Cello. *dart 458 mono blocks. EA MM7. *Equi=tech 10WQ, (10) Abso Fid PC & (2) Evo Acou PC. *Evo Acou 12' TRSC and 8m + 1.25m 'zeel' ic's, *Tripoint Troy Sig + Elite, Entreq Sil Tel + Pos, *Herzan TS-140 & TS-150, Wave Kin. A10 U8's + 2NS, Adona GTX.

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    I agree.....in theory. and I like your method for finding COG.

    my approximately 100 pound direct drive turntable is exactly symmetric in shape; and my 2 tone arms weigh the same, the cartridges are slightly different weight. I center the turntable side to side and front to back within 1/16th of an inch on the top plate of the Herzan. the center of the 50 pound platter is exactly the center of it's three legs/pods.

    I'm not claiming that the center of my turntable is perfectly the center of gravity......but functionally it is pretty close. possibly the weight of the tone arms might be slightly to the rear of the turntable. but I doubt whether one could ever hear the difference between the performance of the Herzan as it is now, and if I were to try and adjust for the front to rear weight bias.

    OTOH non direct drive turntables are not close to symmetric in shape or weight; most have motors or flywheels that tend to pull the center of gravity to one side to a significant degree. a few are three motor designs that potentially could get more symmetric. I would not be surprised to see a performance difference were someone do the center of gravity calculation and then make adjustments. and it would not surprise me to see some turntables hanging over the side in some of those cases.

    and.....likely heavy phono cables might be more culpable in terms of performance compromise to decoupling efforts than center of gravity issues. neutralizing those might be more beneficial.
    Mike you are spot on about the 'tug' exerted by power cords, phono cables etc.
    Turntable/Arm - Yamaha GT 2000/Yamaha YSA-1
    Cartridge - Soundsmith The Voice(Ebony)
    Phono stage - Moon LP 5.3
    Preamp - Hornshoppe The Truth
    Speakers - KRK Expose E8B Mastering Monitors

    Turntable support counts as another component. 21 Clearaudio Magix and more.

  9. #709
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    Re the reservations on using granite, would the same apply to slate?
    My TransFi Salvation tt has a 50lb solid slate plinth, and my idea is to run an inert spiked heavy slate single tier support, a Spiers And Robertson air passive (a la Vibraplane) shelf or electronic active (a la Herzan/Accurion) shelf, w possible intervening layer of Symposium Acoustics Quantum Signature platform &/or Shun Mooks Giants Resonators

    So, would there likely be some mechanical coupling to go for slate stand under a slate plinthed tt? Certainly my tt has a highly neutral presentation, a big part the designer feels is down to the choice of slate for the plinth

  10. #710
    About five years ago I investigated the use of the Minus K isolation stand for my self-designed turntable/armpods arrangement
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    Because of the eccentric loading of the disparate independent parts of my system ......Minus K said....NO!
    I first became aware of the Herzan Active TS Series from a Thread I think on Audiogon some time ago but for about a year, I have been reading this comprehensive discussion and it started me thinking again......
    Living in Sydney, there was no chance of auditioning a TS-140 before buying so I bit the bullet and wrote to Herzan USA (the Distributor for Australia )
    Reid Whitney and Tim Rather sorted it all out for me (including a custom 700mmx500mm top-plate) and it arrived via FedEx 3 days after leaving Herzan in California.
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    Despite the fact that my floor is a reinforced concrete slab cast on the ground and the turntable was supported on a thick laminated shelf cantilevered from a solid brick wall.....I know that there are low-frequency vibrations in all building structures and materials...particularly materials under stress like suspended floors, shelves and equipment stands.
    When materials are in stress (particularly tensile stresses)....they actually emit low-frequency vibrations between 2-10Hz and these frequencies are easily transferred through turntable plinths, motor units, spindles, platters, tonearm mounts and thus into the tonearms, cartridges and vinyl records themselves.
    At first there was a slight glitch when a ground-loop hum avoided all attempts at elimination until I cottoned on to the fact that the polished granite cradle and cast-bronze armpods were all supported on stainless steel spikes which rested on the aluminium top-plate. Once dense plastic coasters were inserted under the spikes.....complete silence reined
    So what are the differences from my previous set-up?
    Exactly what I expected.....but still almost unbelievable
    The improvements at first seem subtle but are all-encompassing....
    Be aware.....this has NO effect on frequency response,
    But every frequency SEEMS affected by suddenly having a purity, transparency and 'body' that was somewhat 'cloudy' before the Herzan.
    There is absolutely no strain or stress to any music at any volume and as you turn up the volume...so you want to continue turning it up.
    I thought perhaps the bass would be deeper or more solid but no.....the bass seems unaffected but all the clarity and delicacy is bestowed upon the midrange and the highs with a singular crystallinity emanating from every cymbal, string, flute and horn.
    The first casualties of unwanted vibrations in the analogue domain are the tiniest molecular-sized groove modulations which contain the most ephemeral informational DNA.
    Qualities like body, soundstage, spatial depth and positional indications are simply smeared when other unwanted vibrations are present.

    The benefits of the Herzan are multiplied four-fold with my turntable arrangement as not only the turntable is affected by the low-frequency vibrations transmitted up from the cantilevered supporting bare shelf.....but every armpod is individually subjected as well.
    With most turntables having their tonearm(s) attached to their plinths or armboards......once you effectively isolate the plinth, you don't have to worry so much about the tonearms.

    Despite the fact that the Herzan stand cost more than my entire turntable/cradle/armpods and tonearms combined......it is an investment in sound purity which I will never regret
    Regards
    Henry

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