Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

microstrip · Jun 13, 2013

Reid.Whitney said:
(...) These systems incorporate numerous low frequency sensors, actuators and circuitry components that are individually made and assembled to achieve the highest level of precision possible. These tables are unable to be mass produced due to their highly technical nature, requiring careful assembly and precision during their build. Each table is also thoroughly tested and evaluated to ensure they meet a specific standard of performance and reliability.

Also, the original intention for these systems were geared towards high resolution microscopes (i.e. AFMs, SPMs, etc.), which required a high level of consistency, reliability, and performance. (...)

Reid,

I think you oversimplified the problem - otherwise people would easily accept the price. Keeping such a system in equilibrium is a fantastic job and needs high precision and a high degree of consistency in the parts. The six axes problem is complex and much more complicated than the spring suspension of a turntable. Also, as you refer, high reliability and confidence is a must in laboratory equipment - your clients will not want to stop their half million AFMs for a few days just because the isolation table has a bad actuator!

As you say, these tables are an overkill for audiophile applications, but they seem to enhance the performance of our current equipment much more than can be expected by audio accepted knowledge. Until we know exactly what are the important and relevant parameters and frequencies we have to stick with the best.

microstrip · Jun 13, 2013

Steve Williams said:
(...) As I see it I would have to wonder about this technology being refined specifically for audio. For instance is it really important that the Herzan performs down to 0.5 Hz?? Nice that it does but short of a California earthquake, is that a frequency that is necessary.

IOW why can't the company start thinking out of the box and consider the untapped source of revenue from audiophiles

Someone mentioned in an earlier post that manufacturers of TT's should think about using this technology built into the platforms that come with the TT

Steve,

As I said in my previous post no one can scientifically explain the beneficial influence of the active isolation tables. Most probably the frequencies and range will be different for different types of equipment and brands. Perhaps it is a nonsense, but a spinning LP can create a disturbance at 1.8 Hz and perhaps the active systems will help the turntable cancelling this effect. As you say developing a specif unit for a specific component can seem to be a way of producing a cheaper isolation system, but IMHO the market is too small for this type of strategy.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 13, 2013

cjfrbw said:
I still have a hi rez (48/24) copy of that record recorded to my computer, made from my vinyl system. Sounds pretty good, but not as good as the original record when I played it live.

Bruce did a 'double dsd' 5.6mhz needle drop recording of St. James Infirmary off my tt last year that a few folks have heard that is pretty good. but not very close to the actual record.

Steve Williams · Jun 13, 2013

microstrip said:
Steve,

As I said in my previous post no one can scientifically explain the beneficial influence of the active isolation tables. Most probably the frequencies and range will be different for different types of equipment and brands. Perhaps it is a nonsense, but a spinning LP can create a disturbance at 1.8 Hz and perhaps the active systems will help the turntable cancelling this effect. As you say developing a specif unit for a specific component can seem to be a way of producing a cheaper isolation system, but IMHO the market is too small for this type of strategy.

I disagree. I bet there are more audiophiles world wide than labs doing AFM

Reid.Whitney · Jun 13, 2013

Hi Peter,

Thank you for sharing your elegant set up and informing me of the current concerns you have for your turntable. I will do my best to address your question framing my answer around my experience with vibration isolation technology.

Majority of vibration isolation systems are incapable of addressing vibrations imparted by the supported application. The TS Series we offer has an opportunity to address vibrations induced by the turntable itself, but the level of isolation is not as significant as the vibrations being isolated from the environment. The TS Series is capable of achieving this form of vibration isolation as the sensory point of the table is focused on the top plate instead of the floor, whereby neutralizing the top plate vibrations rather than the floor vibrations. Another feature that some active vibration isolation tables incorporate is a dynamic feedback loop, which effectively provides a continuous input/output isolation mechanism addressing all vibrations in the environment. There is a lot of additional technical information that I could share, but I don't mean to bore you.

Other methods of improving vibrations from affecting an application can be where you place the set up, cable management, what floor the setup is placed on and many more. If you want to learn more about these methods, our Tutorials page has an overview of some of these recommended practices (found here).

I hope this information is helpful with your set up.

LL21 · Jun 13, 2013

Steve Williams said:
Lloyd

this is not a problem with the LL1 preamp as they are each fully enclosed

As I see it I would have to wonder about this technology being refined specifically for audio. For instance is it really important that the Herzan performs down to 0.5 Hz?? Nice that it does but short of a California earthquake, is that a frequency that is necessary.

Hi Steve...actually, I was thinking of your ML3 amps. But yes, your preamp is equally big! Good to know about enclosures.

http://sem-proceedings.com/26i/sem....Response-High-Frequency-Floors-A-Footfall.pdf

skimmed...are they implying 0hz-5hz for footfall when engineering flooring?

Steve Williams · Jun 13, 2013

lloydelee21 said:
Hi Steve...actually, I was thinking of your ML3 amps. But yes, your preamp is equally big! Good to know about enclosures.

http://sem-proceedings.com/26i/sem....Response-High-Frequency-Floors-A-Footfall.pdf

skimmed...are they implying 0hz-5hz for footfall when engineering flooring?

sorry Lloyd, I misunderstood

FWIW, I have my ML3's on Aurios M1B's

microstrip · Jun 13, 2013

Steve Williams said:
I disagree. I bet there are more audiophiles world wide than labs doing AFM

Yes, but no one will think about using an AFM without an isolation table, and the great majority of the audiophiles does not believe in active isolation tables. Remember that the audiophile world is inequality split between non believers and believers...

Mike Lavigne · Jun 13, 2013

microstrip said:
Steve,

As I said in my previous post no one can scientifically explain the beneficial influence of the active isolation tables. Most probably the frequencies and range will be different for different types of equipment and brands. Perhaps it is a nonsense, but a spinning LP can create a disturbance at 1.8 Hz and perhaps the active systems will help the turntable cancelling this effect. As you say developing a specif unit for a specific component can seem to be a way of producing a cheaper isolation system, but IMHO the market is too small for this type of strategy.

i can tell you that low frequency isolation has real benefit on a turntable in my system. i have bass towers that are -3db at 7 hz, and -6db at 3hz. i'm not saying that there is much if any musical information down there, but systems do throw off low frequencies for various reasons that becomes part of the noise floor, and stuff down there will definitely feed back thru the rack if it gets a chance. the change in my bass performance with the Herzan is nothing short of astonishing, and i feel i've got my full money's worth in this area.

spiritofmusic · Jun 13, 2013

In the UK it looks like Herzan/TableStable, and Halcyonics are going to be similar in price, with effectively similar application of technology (active isolation down to 0.5 Hz, isolation in 6 axes, piezoelectic sensors), so my choice may come down to whether I can get a trial of the TableStable TS-150 or Halcyonics i4/Silencer. Can anyone familiar with both companies comment on their similarities and any differences.
The main issue with my rack (Symposium Isis) is that it incorporates it's own isolation (ball bearing/opposing magnets), so if I'm going to use active isolation on my tt, I'll most likely install a wall shelf to place a TS-150 or i4/Silencer on, or even place this all on the floor.
People's thoughts on using a tt on an active isolation shelf on the floor directly. With the engineering overkill on display, it strikes me it should take floor application in it's stride.

cjfrbw · Jun 13, 2013

If you have any kind of springy floors, you are always going to be better off with a suspended wall shelf, preferably attached to a vertical support column. I don't think the devices were intended to cancel the sometimes humongous energies of footfalls on springy wooden floors on second stories or passing trucks, but more the medium range low frequency energies from the air and supporting structures.

Concrete slab is a very good starting point for floor supported turntables.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 13, 2013

spiritofmusic said:
In the UK it looks like Herzan/TableStable, and Halcyonics are going to be similar in price, with effectively similar application of technology (active isolation down to 0.5 Hz, isolation in 6 axes, piezoelectic sensors), so my choice may come down to whether I can get a trial of the TableStable TS-150 or Halcyonics i4/Silencer. Can anyone familiar with both companies comment on their similarities and any differences.
The main issue with my rack (Symposium Isis) is that it incorporates it's own isolation (ball bearing/opposing magnets), so if I'm going to use active isolation on my tt, I'll most likely install a wall shelf to place a TS-150 or i4/Silencer on, or even place this all on the floor.
People's thoughts on using a tt on an active isolation shelf on the floor directly. With the engineering overkill on display, it strikes me it should take floor application in it's stride.

Spirit,

first off, welcome to WBF. nice to see you here.

the major differences between the Herzan TS-150 and the Halcyonics i4 is (1) the height of the cabinet, the Herzan is 1/2 inch shorter (a matter of the look and rack space), and (2) the Herzan does attenuate to .5 hz as opposed to the Halcyonics attenuates to .6 hz, (3) the weight capacity of the TS-150 is 330 pounds, the i4 has a 132 pound capacity, and (4) the i4 is 2 inches longer than the TS-150 at 19.7" long. i'm sure if you look at the specs there are other small differences. they are two products made from the same propriatary technology.

the Halcyonics i4 is a single product in a single size. it gives up the weight capacity of the Halcyonics Micro series to achieve the smaller form factor and the lower .6 hz spec.

for Halcyonics the Micro line is really the TS competition. the Micro line-up has a taller form factor than the i4 and there are 3 sizes like the Herzan TS series. the Micro line-up goes to 1 hz attenuation.

the Herzan/Table Stable TS series has 3 sizes.

Bill Hart · Jun 13, 2013

Great thread. Christian- could you post a pic of the replacement Herzan under your table? Did you buy a larger one than currently needed in anticipation of the new turntable you are expecting? The pic of the original one you posted made the device look far bigger than the turntable, though it might just have been a function of the photography.
Nice that Reid chimed in as well.
When you think about how much money is spent on racks, decouplers, inert platforms and the like (leaving aside costly cable from arm to phono stage), the 12 large doesn't seem quite so large, particularly given the level of the systems involved here.
Certainly looks like it is made for Mike's table.
I would definitely consider something like this once I'm resettled....

rockitman · Jun 13, 2013

Steve Williams said:
so how low a frequency is a foot fall? Your other examples come no where near 0.5 Hz

well I can't hear a foot fall, especially one that is from a light foot tap. The finger snap was not meant for the low Hz discussion, rather just an example of how sensitive the unit is to external vibration including the music itself.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 13, 2013

whart said:
Great thread. Christian- could you post a pic of the replacement Herzan under your table? Did you buy a larger one than currently needed in anticipation of the new turntable you are expecting? The pic of the original one you posted made the device look far bigger than the turntable, though it might just have been a function of the photography.
Nice that Reid chimed in as well.
When you think about how much money is spent on racks, decouplers, inert platforms and the like (leaving aside costly cable from arm to phono stage), the 12 large doesn't seem quite so large, particularly given the level of the systems involved here.
Certainly looks like it is made for Mike's table.
I would definitely consider something like this once I'm resettled....

your comment about how much money we spend (and effort we invest) over time dealing with resonance control, and that $12k does not seem quite so bad, reminds me of our previous discussions about power conditioners and power cords, and that type thing compared to an Equi=tech.

do the job really right once, instead of half-way 10 times.

rockitman · Jun 13, 2013

whart said:
Great thread. Christian- could you post a pic of the replacement Herzan under your table? Did you buy a larger one than currently needed in anticipation of the new turntable you are expecting? The pic of the original one you posted made the device look far bigger than the turntable, though it might just have been a function of the photography.
Nice that Reid chimed in as well.
When you think about how much money is spent on racks, decouplers, inert platforms and the like (leaving aside costly cable from arm to phono stage), the 12 large doesn't seem quite so large, particularly given the level of the systems involved here.
Certainly looks like it is made for Mike's table.
I would definitely consider something like this once I'm resettled....

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Stable-quot-Active-quot-Isolation-table/page3

Hi Bill,

The TS 140 size closely mirrors the size of my rack's top shelf which is 21 x 27. I will take a pic soon and post it. Your table is the correct match for this unit as it is non suspended. I cannot vow for the efficacy of using one under all suspended type designs. I would think SME would benefit as Peter uses the Passive air bladder type with success under his sme. Incidentally, I use the same rack as Mike....who posted a pic earlier in this thread. Adona Zero GXT

spiritofmusic · Jun 13, 2013

Mike, thanks for your input. The email I've received from Halcyonics in effect states that the i4 is a direct replacement for the Micro 40, with (near) identical use of technology and specs. The Silencer is an aesthetically redesigned version of the Micro 40 to satisfy audiophile visuals.
My tt is about 17" x 15", and 77lb in weight (a mere flyweight compared to your NVS), and hence the i4 will be totally sufficient for my needs. Personally I find it's aesthetics the best btwn it, the Micro 40, Silencer and TS-150. Additionally, the i4 is a little lighter than the TS-150, and about half the weight of the TS-140/Silencer - if I'm going to site my tt on a wall shelf, the manageable weight of the i4 will be a major plus point. Also, don't want to demonstrate too much audio navel gazing by rejecting 0.6hz for 0.5Hz.
As I said, these things are all pretty pricy, so the deciding factor of least weight for wall shelf application, greater chance of home demo, and more competitive pricing may make the i4 a no-brainer. The amazing thing is that even factoring in the cost of the i4, my tt-arm-i4 total price will still be more than half of eg an SME 20-12.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 13, 2013

spiritofmusic said:
Mike, thanks for your input. The email I've received from Halcyonics in effect states that the i4 is a direct replacement for the Micro 40, with (near) identical use of technology and specs. The Silencer is an aesthetically redesigned version of the Micro 40 to satisfy audiophile visuals.
My tt is about 17" x 15", and 77lb in weight (a mere flyweight compared to your NVS), and hence the i4 will be totally sufficient for my needs. Personally I find it's aesthetics the best btwn it, the Micro 40, Silencer and TS-150. Additionally, the i4 is a little lighter than the TS-150, and about half the weight of the TS-140/Silencer - if I'm going to site my tt on a wall shelf, the manageable weight of the i4 will be a major plus point. Also, don't want to demonstrate too much audio navel gazing by rejecting 0.6hz for 0.5Hz.
As I said, these things are all pretty pricy, so the deciding factor of least weight for wall shelf application, greater chance of home demo, and more competitive pricing may make the i4 a no-brainer. The amazing thing is that even factoring in the cost of the i4, my tt-arm-i4 total price will still be more than half of eg an SME 20-12.

the weight capacity of the Micro 40 is 220 pounds, the i4 has 132 pounds capacity.

the Micro 40 weighs 61 pounds, the i4 weighs 44 pounds.

the Micro 40 is 5 inches tall, the i4 is 3.5 inches tall.

the Micro 40 has a top shelf 17.6" x 16", the i4's top shelf is 19.7" x 15.7".

clearly the i4 is not exactly a direct replacement for a Micro 40, although it offers the desired shorter form factor, and the lower .6 hz attenuation.

does the weight or load capacity have any performance significance other than the spec? i have no idea.

i agree with your choice of the i4 based on how you are intending to use this. i just want to be clear about how these products differ. what these differences translate to in performance is not known. my guess is that all these type products will blow us audiophiles out of the water in our expectations.

cjfrbw · Jun 13, 2013

After making me think about things, this thread has actually talked me into looking for a used Minus K platform, so I will be monitering for one of those.

http://www.minusk.com/content/in-the-news/WideRev_1012.html

"Negative-stiffness isolators work with audio systems in two ways, "continues Jacobs. "One, they cancel out large vibrations, what we refer to as footfall. If a turntable is set up on anything other than a concrete slab floor or other large inert mass, then every time someone walks in the vicinity of the turntable, the vibrations from their footsteps are transmitted through the floor to the support stand and into the turntable, and finally show up in the recording. People will literally tiptoe around their audio playback systems, but the playback process is so sensitive that it will still pick up footsteps in the hallways or rooms some distance away. And two, the negative-stiffness isolators block out building vibrations in the higher audible frequencies."

McMahon states, "transmissibility of negative-stiffness isolators is also improved compared to active vibration isolation systems. Also known as electronic force cancellation, active isolation uses electronics to sense the motion, and then adds forces electronically to effectively cancel out or prevent it. Some active isolation systems can start isolating as low as 0.7 Hz. But active systems have a limited dynamic range that is easy to exceed, causing the isolator to go into positive feedback and generate noise. Although active isolation systems have fundamentally no resonance, their transmissibility does not roll off as fast as negative-stiffness isolators."

I am just not convinced that the active platforms at their prices aren't gold plated flyswatters, and it seems they have potential downsides with turntables, which are not lab microscopes or fertility pipettes but are also attacking the actuators with their own vibrations.

Using a Minus K on top of my recently acquired granite lab isolation platform seems like it should really do the trick. All passive, low maintenance, no electricity or air, sounds like a deal.

NorthStar · Jun 13, 2013

First, thank you to Christian for having started a great thread of importance. And thanks to Mike too for his invaluable contributions.
...And to everyone else who are participating and contributing by confirming the results observed by Christian and Mike, from this fascinating and scientific subject that goes beyond the musical exploration of turntable's vibrations elimination with extreme prejudice to the highest degree. ...As it started for very precise microscope instrumentation in the field of chemistry and medicine.

And thank you Reid for your writings, your links, and those pictures I asked for.

That is What's Best should always be about, among other great things of top interest.

When people like Christian and Mike are talking, I am listening. And when Reid joined in, I was already hooked.
I am a total believer, and money is now not so relevant anymore in a world of perfectionism in the goal of improving our lives and our musical involvement to serve our enjoyment.

* Michael Fremer should be here too with us.

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