Audiocrack,
Nice to learn that you have a Forsell turntable - as far as I see we can now count three Forsell turntables owners in WBF! I also found that the Forsell sounded much better using the active Vibraplane.
Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
- Start date
Audiocrack,
Nice to learn that you have a Forsell turntable - as far as I see we can now count three Forsell turntables owners in WBF! I also found that the Forsell sounded much better using the active Vibraplane.
Thanks for pointing the Halcyonics platforms - it seems there is some hope for people in Europe. Taken from the 2008 (yes, five years ago ...) Dagogo review: http://dagogo.com/halcyonics-micro-40-isolation-platform-review
The Halcyonics is made in Germany originally for scientific applications, such as use under electron microscopes. As a result of that, plus the devaluation of the dollar against the Euro, it is very expensive even by high-end standards ($11,500). The even worse news is that it is superb. The subject of this review is the lower model, the $8,500 Micro 40.
The Halcyonics basically has eight piezoelectric sensors on diagonals horizontally and four in the corners vertically. Each sensor generates an electric current when it is stressed and this current is then fed to an associated voice coil to cancel any vibration sensed by it. If you view the LCD display on the front of the unit you will see correction taking place constantly. Interestingly, even though these units are primarily focused on the frequency band from 10-100 Hz, the majority of corrections are not in the bass regions (except footfalls). The majority are in the midrange frequencies. The Halcyonics is different from isolation devices which use springs, whether metal, magnetic or pneumatic, which all exhibit a resonant frequency. The Halcyonics has no resonant frequency and instead works much the same as noise cancelling headphones. It senses motion and cancels it by generating a signal which is 180 degrees out of phase. The absence of a resonant frequency or frequencies underlies the superior operating principles and performance of this base.
PositiveFeedback also had a great review of the Halcyonics micro 40 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue29/halcyonics.htm
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Thanks Microstrip. Always loved and still love the Forsell sound. I believe that it can still compete with most of the current top turntables (apart maybe from the bass which is in my opinion the weakest link in the Forsell sound). Btw, I am not using the flywheel anymore (way too much hazzle) but combined the Forsell with the Walker motordrive. To my ears a very happy marriage indeed.
Audiocrack,
The DC motor of the Forsell air flywheel is really the problem - it includes a tachometer but the electronics of the servo is very poor and unreliable. I am now adapting another motor to drive it using a belt - I hope to have it working soon. I also learn that one user had success using the VPI double motor flywheel to drive it. What type of belt are you using?
I already emailed Halcyonics - it seems they are now known as Accurion http://www.accurion.de/
Thanks Microstrip. The problem is that Peter Forsell has choosen this motor very carefully after trying a lot of other devices but this one offered by far the best sound at that time (talked quite a lot with Peter many, manymoons ago). Are you not afraid that changing the motor will change the 'Forsell' sound of your table?
I am using the silk belts that Lloyd Walker supplies with his turntable. Have experimented in the past fish rod but prefer the silk belts that I am also using with my Proscenium table.
I am using the silk belts that Lloyd Walker supplies with his turntable. Have experimented in the past fish rod but prefer the silk belts that I am also using with my Proscenium table.
hello Audiocrack,
welcome to this discussion and it's good to have a Halcyonics owner here. I had the Micro 40 in my room for an evening in 2005 and have had the active isolation itch since then. finally scratched it this past week and am loving it.
I fully agree with your 'music flows much more naturally' comment. the music is less processed, more pure musical message.
thanks.
Thanks for your kind words Mike. It is a real pity that the Halcyonics and Herzan devices are so costly. That said, the Halcyonics (cannot speak about Herzan from own experience) are very important components in my set up, contributing considerably to the quality and the purity of the sound. When I first heard them, I could not believe what I heard! Eg, my DCS Scarlatti cd-system benefitted enormously. One of my friends, a technician with golden ears who helps me with my large systems, remarked when we first put the Halcyonics vario devices under my wooden rack with the four Scarlatti units: jeeh, it seems that we are listening to a different cd-player playing at another level. My point is: if possible, use these active devices for more audio components than only turntables.
Audiocrack,
Nice to know you have met Peter Forsell. Can you tell me if the silk belts have a knot? I never liked the idea of the knot in the dental floss belts, although I agree it can not be heard. But it looks ugly.
Peter Forsell choose a DC motor to be used driving axially the flywheel through a Teflon coupler - it was not an easy task to design a controller for a system having so large rotational inertia. I am sure that a controller using a microprocessor similar to those used in modern turntables with DC motors, where the correction loops are implemented in software, would easily solve the problem. I could program it in LabView using an USB interface card, but then the Forsell would be debated in the computer audio thread.
No knots on the silk belts, microstrip. Lloyd Walker uses some special glue. I am not a technician but I believe that I understand what you are saying. That said, I still wonder whether such a step will influence the sound but I suppose - as always - the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Please let me know your experiences.
Hello All,
My name is Reid Whitney and I work with the company Herzan. I have been given the incredible opportunity to work with Mike Lavigne and Christian (Rockitman) on delivering active vibration isolation tables for their premium turn table systems. They have both been very helpful and generous in their feedback on our systems.
I wanted to reach out to this thread and share our gratitude for the kind words being shared and let everyone know that I will be happy to answer any questions or provide any information needed. Please feel free to use my as a resource, should it be of service to you.
Thank you again for all of your feedback.
My name is Reid Whitney and I work with the company Herzan. I have been given the incredible opportunity to work with Mike Lavigne and Christian (Rockitman) on delivering active vibration isolation tables for their premium turn table systems. They have both been very helpful and generous in their feedback on our systems.
I wanted to reach out to this thread and share our gratitude for the kind words being shared and let everyone know that I will be happy to answer any questions or provide any information needed. Please feel free to use my as a resource, should it be of service to you.
Thank you again for all of your feedback.
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Hi Reid,
-- Yes I am mostly interested by the TS-140 TT stable active isolation platform. ...I am reading this entire thread with a passionate interest.
If it is possible, I would love to see the internals of the Herzan TS-140, and with some descriptions of it's overall "fonctionnement".
The descriptions directly related to the major musical improvement by Christian and Mike are to be taken very seriously by many people here, me included.
I do realize that $12,000 for the Herzan TS-140 is not something everyone can afford, or would love to spend.
So if you don't mind please, describe in your own words and partitions what the TS-140 is comprised of; then it can help absorb a little easier her cost.
And last, are there other similar devices with similar results for a lesser overall investment?
I am 100% certain that I am not the only one who would sincerely love to improve the sound of its TT without spending more than what his TT cost.
It is with the utmost interest that I am following through, in the pursuit of satisfaction for all TT lovers around and everywhere.
My very best regards,
Bob
-- Yes I am mostly interested by the TS-140 TT stable active isolation platform. ...I am reading this entire thread with a passionate interest.
If it is possible, I would love to see the internals of the Herzan TS-140, and with some descriptions of it's overall "fonctionnement".
The descriptions directly related to the major musical improvement by Christian and Mike are to be taken very seriously by many people here, me included.
I do realize that $12,000 for the Herzan TS-140 is not something everyone can afford, or would love to spend.
So if you don't mind please, describe in your own words and partitions what the TS-140 is comprised of; then it can help absorb a little easier her cost.
And last, are there other similar devices with similar results for a lesser overall investment?
I am 100% certain that I am not the only one who would sincerely love to improve the sound of its TT without spending more than what his TT cost.
It is with the utmost interest that I am following through, in the pursuit of satisfaction for all TT lovers around and everywhere.
My very best regards,
Bob
A big welcome to WBF...looking forward to learning more about your products. I have heard Halcyonics with Audiocrack and was impressed by what Active Isolation does for a system's purity. I understand Herzan is also a leading company in this area.
Any technical thoughts (expressed for non-techies
) about active vs great passive isolation? perhaps touching upon inherent material resonance (aluminium, granite, etc)...as well as what makes active as materially better as we are hearing from Mike, Rockitman and Audiocrack.
Looking at the curves, a Minus K is MORE effective than the active devices in vertical isolation at 5-10HZ. At 10HZ, the minus K is less effective in the horizontal plane compared to the Herzan active, but still -20 db.
You could enhance a Minus K with rollerballs or an additional platform to improve the horizontal performance, or just stack them and it would still be cheaper than the active devices. The stacked Minus K would be -80 db at 5 HZ, and -40 db at 10 HZ. That is superior isolation in the vertical plane over the active devices by at least 20 db, and equivalent or better isolation in the horizontal plane, and still passive.
That is assuming you could actually hear improvement beyond -20 db to begin with.
Of course, a testimonial blitz is now in order.
I guess by the end of the thread, the Herzan will be under everything in the room, including the cat.
You could enhance a Minus K with rollerballs or an additional platform to improve the horizontal performance, or just stack them and it would still be cheaper than the active devices. The stacked Minus K would be -80 db at 5 HZ, and -40 db at 10 HZ. That is superior isolation in the vertical plane over the active devices by at least 20 db, and equivalent or better isolation in the horizontal plane, and still passive.
That is assuming you could actually hear improvement beyond -20 db to begin with.
Of course, a testimonial blitz is now in order.
I guess by the end of the thread, the Herzan will be under everything in the room, including the cat.
Hi Bob,
I will be happy to provide some information on our system to help provide a more clear understanding of the TS Series internals.
The TS Series includes piezoelectric sensors and actuators (force motors) to dynamically attenuate all six forms of vibrations (what we call six degrees of freedom). Outside of isolating all forms of vibrations (which passive systems do not do), the TS Systems attenuate vibrations over a more broad frequency spectrum, isolating vibrations in the lower frequency range (TS Series starts isolating vibrations at 0.7 Hz, whereas most passive systems begin isolating at 4-5 Hz). It is the low frequency isolation in which is most important for high resolution microscopes and highly sensitive precision equipment.
It can be said that AFMs have a similar sensitivity to vibrations as turntables, with the cantilever of an AFM experiencing the same sensitivities as a needle of a turntable. We have plenty of resources on our website that you may find useful, which can be found here (in case you are interested).
Similar Devices
There are smaller platform TS Series devices that cost less than the TS-140 as well as an alternative form factor of active vibration isolation platforms available. This different form factor is called the AVI Series, which has a different set of characteristics and features, but incorporates the same piezo technology as the TS Series. The AVI Series is less automated, higher profile and modular, enabling a more customizable solution to vibrations. The AVI Series is also less expensive than their TS Series counterparts.
Additionally, there are different technologies that incorporate air as the method of vibration isolation, which are very cost effective solutions. These are often used for optical microscopes that do not have an inherent sensitivity to low frequency vibrations. These type of tables typically range from 1.8k - 2.6k depending on the size and configuration.
My apologies for the information overload, but I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if you have any additional questions or are interested in additional information.
I will be happy to provide some information on our system to help provide a more clear understanding of the TS Series internals.
The TS Series includes piezoelectric sensors and actuators (force motors) to dynamically attenuate all six forms of vibrations (what we call six degrees of freedom). Outside of isolating all forms of vibrations (which passive systems do not do), the TS Systems attenuate vibrations over a more broad frequency spectrum, isolating vibrations in the lower frequency range (TS Series starts isolating vibrations at 0.7 Hz, whereas most passive systems begin isolating at 4-5 Hz). It is the low frequency isolation in which is most important for high resolution microscopes and highly sensitive precision equipment.
It can be said that AFMs have a similar sensitivity to vibrations as turntables, with the cantilever of an AFM experiencing the same sensitivities as a needle of a turntable. We have plenty of resources on our website that you may find useful, which can be found here (in case you are interested).
Similar Devices
There are smaller platform TS Series devices that cost less than the TS-140 as well as an alternative form factor of active vibration isolation platforms available. This different form factor is called the AVI Series, which has a different set of characteristics and features, but incorporates the same piezo technology as the TS Series. The AVI Series is less automated, higher profile and modular, enabling a more customizable solution to vibrations. The AVI Series is also less expensive than their TS Series counterparts.
Additionally, there are different technologies that incorporate air as the method of vibration isolation, which are very cost effective solutions. These are often used for optical microscopes that do not have an inherent sensitivity to low frequency vibrations. These type of tables typically range from 1.8k - 2.6k depending on the size and configuration.
My apologies for the information overload, but I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if you have any additional questions or are interested in additional information.
Good point Carl! ... I bet CD/SACD players can benefit too, and Blu-ray players as well. ...The cat? ...Racing cars? ...Under the house, the wife?
Thanks Reid; you were straight to the point.
Is it possible to 'dissect' the TS-140 so that one can have a close look inside?
Is it possible to 'dissect' the TS-140 so that one can have a close look inside?
Reid has posted some complementary information in WBF one year ago in a thread about active isolation. I am including a link to it.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7080-What-do-you-use-for-vibration-isolation&p=118976&viewfull=1#post118976
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7080-What-do-you-use-for-vibration-isolation&p=118976&viewfull=1#post118976
Thanks Francisco; most useful here now in this thread.
Still want to see inside though. ...Or unless it's a secret.
Still want to see inside though. ...Or unless it's a secret.
How long before some clever turntable designer incorporates this unit, or similar technology, into the design of his turntable base? Rockport did this very thing with the Kinetic Systems or Technical Manufacturing Company (TMC) air suspension table custom made for base/stand of their Sirrius SP? turntable. It was very effective at the time and a clever solution.
Perhaps Steve Dobbins or Jonathan Tinn is listening. Or VPI? I can see a modern direct-drive table with these sensors in the plinth and for $30-40K being the new SOTA.
Perhaps Steve Dobbins or Jonathan Tinn is listening. Or VPI? I can see a modern direct-drive table with these sensors in the plinth and for $30-40K being the new SOTA.
Reid
welcome to WBF
I see we are neighbors. I live in Coto De Caza and see you are in Laguna Hills. I lived in Laguna Hills from 1978-1993. I might have to drop by your business for a hands on demo
welcome to WBF
I see we are neighbors. I live in Coto De Caza and see you are in Laguna Hills. I lived in Laguna Hills from 1978-1993. I might have to drop by your business for a hands on demo
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