Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

spiritofmusic · Nov 23, 2017

Mike, the Herzan/Accurion acolytes in Asia with formidable systems were raving about outboard LPSUs 5 years ago, and that’s as simple replacements for the stock switching supplies, with none of the additional materials customisation going into the Tana.
You’re potentially going to get the upstick of what they heard, w more besides.
To Christian’s skepticism, I get it. Eg have any of the lab guys ie typical users of Herzan gone for this custom psu option? Does it make their results clearer etc?
Ie w all this photos blurred before Herzan installed, and precisely clear after Herzan installed, are the photos even clearer after the outboard psu installed?

microstrip · Nov 23, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
i'm not skeptical, only the degree of improvement I need to hear with my own ears.

there are two areas of advantage to an LPS.

first; the noise from the SMPS into your power grid is an issue as well as even corrupting your sensitive phono stage high gain circuits with EMI/RF. a couple years ago I had the Thoress Phono in my system and I had to turn off the TS-140 to use the Thoress; I tried moving the Thoress farther away or shielding the Thoress, and grounding the TS-140.......but I could not solve the problem so sold the Thoress.

second, just better power for the sensors means better performance. more linear, more solid. just like power supply improvements in any piece of gear.

we know not all power supplies are created equal.

There are many reasons why this improved power supply should result in better performance.

The first is simply locating a 50/60 Hz switching device away from the inside of the table where are located the sensors that supply feedback to actuators. The mains frequency and its harmonics are in critical zones of usual room resonances in audio systems, something that does not happen in labs!

As you said, the interaction with mains is always critical in switching or digital devices - probably the chokes are playing a double role in this power supply, also avoiding contamination of the mains with the intrinsic noise of the table electronics.

It should be noted that the bandwidth of this table extends bellow 1 Hz - and here rejection of slow mains fluctuations becomes critical. Also, these actuators need current pulses, and the power supply needs to supply them without any modulation that could affect the sensors. Probably it is why this circuit performs better than others for this task. Active tables are feedback devices - every small signal gets a lot of amplification, minimizing noise is critical. Curious people can read the Belleson regulator patent here: https://www.google.com/patents/US8294440?cl=en

EuroDriver · Nov 23, 2017

rockitman said:
I really haven't been paying too much attention to this linear power supply thing. Can someone please explain how the TS-140 isolates better with a linear power supply ? So how low does it isolate down to ? 3Hz vs the stock 5Hz ? How can the difference be heard and especially between different LPS's. I remain skeptical.

The low frequency isolation performance of a SMPS powered or LPS powered TS-140 or 150 should not be measurably different using time averaged FFT. With a good LPS, the mid range and highs are significantly improved over a SMPS powered TS-140 /150. Does the LF sound better, almost impossible to say as the high frequency is significantly better and that affects LF perception. Power supply ripple, and vibration induced noise on the DC power going into the TS-140 and 150 will have audible degradation effects.

SMPS's are good at providing stable voltages but have a lot of RF noise

rockitman · Nov 23, 2017

EuroDriver said:
The low frequency isolation performance of a SMPS powered or LPS powered TS-140 or 150 should not be measurably different using time averaged FFT. With a good LPS, the mid range and highs are significantly improved over a SMPS powered TS-140 /150. Does the LF sound better, almost impossible to say as the high frequency is significantly better. Power supply ripple, and vibration induced noise on the DC power going into the TS-140 and 150 will have audible degradation effects.

SMPS's are good at providing stable voltages but have a lot of RF noise

Thank you for that explanation.

spiritofmusic · Nov 23, 2017

Audiophilia has to be the strangest hobby of all.
If you told an electron microscope scientist using a Herzan w stock SMPS all day, that psus which make no difference to his work but make ALL the difference to what we hear, he would think we’re v “special” indeed.

EuroDriver · Nov 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Audiophilia has to be the strangest hobby of all.
If you told an electron microscope scientist using a Herzan w stock SMPS all day, that psus which make no difference to his work but make ALL the difference to what we hear, he would think we’re v “special” indeed.

We do have a Setchi customer in Holland who reports noticeably better video quality with his Euro 15 K video projector.

We are further investigating ;-)

BMCG · Nov 23, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Audiophilia has to be the strangest hobby of all.
If you told an electron microscope scientist using a Herzan w stock SMPS all day, that psus which make no difference to his work but make ALL the difference to what we hear, he would think we’re v “special” indeed.

Hmmmm .... my better half makes that point with respect to this affliction

spiritofmusic · Nov 23, 2017

Yep.
She’s in the garden enjoying the sun and fresh air.
I’m in a dark room w no windows.
She’s dealing w the colours of the rainbow.
I’m musing over a black component, or if I’m lucky, a silver one.
She considers, but doesn’t worry about, where she plants things.
I’m in a constant state of panic over the merest hint of hardness or softness in my sound.
Then, I go down to the garden and we enjoy a couple of beers and admire her handiwork, and after, she comes up to the audio room, and is knocked out by how much better Depeche Mode “Personal Jesus” sounds compared to before my latest change, and I’m happy again.
And she still thinks I’m very “special” LOL.

microstrip · Nov 23, 2017

EuroDriver said:
(...) SMPS's are good at providing stable voltages but have a lot of RF noise

IMHO we should be careful with such broad statements. It is possible to design a SMPS with very low noise, but it would probably be much more expensive than the one you are using. Some designers combine SMPS with linear regulators, getting the best of both techniques.

Did you try using a battery with the Belleson regulator? Then it would be the audiophile dream power supply!

spiritofmusic · Nov 23, 2017

My previous q was tongue in cheek, but also partially serious.
Will these off-board Tana LPSUs benefit from a Tana under them as well? That means an endless chain of Tanas and their psus being isolated by other Tanas .
If so, what ends does the audiophile who demands a complete solution go to?

EuroDriver · Nov 23, 2017

microstrip said:
IMHO we should be careful with such broad statements. It is possible to design a SMPS with very low noise, but it would probably be much more expensive than the one you are using. Some designers combine SMPS with linear regulators, getting the best of both techniques.

Did you try using a battery with the Belleson regulator? Then it would be the audiophile dream power supply!

In my previous post I was referring to the stock internal SMPS, and the stock external SMPS that comes from Table Stable / Herzan

Battery power supplies do work very well in some applications, but the more we have worked with choke power supplies, we find that they seem to work very well in digital environments. Not what they were originally designed for but do a surprisingly good job

theophile · Nov 23, 2017

There are two things that the choke power supply could be doing:

1) Purifying the supply to the isolation platform.

Plus

2) Preventing contamination of the mains power-line originating from the isolation platform.

I'm guessing that both are taking place and benefiting the sound of the system.

EuroDriver · Nov 24, 2017

theophile said:
There are two things that the choke power supply could be doing:

1) Purifying the supply to the isolation platform.

Plus

2) Preventing contamination of the mains power-line originating from the isolation platform.

I'm guessing that both are taking place and benefiting the sound of the system.

Bingo but we wanted to keep that to ourselves

During the development of the SGM server power supply, we increased the number of chokes from 1 to 2 and increased the total inductance more than 10 fold

Mike Lavigne · Nov 24, 2017

the 'package' arrived an hour ago so I came home and set it up, it's working now. got to get back to work.

did not listen long enough to say much, but it did make me grin.

microstrip · Nov 24, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
the 'package' arrived an hour ago so I came home and set it up, it's working now. got to get back to work.

did not listen long enough to say much, but it did make me grin.

Why did you choose to use the active table under the server and not under the MSB DAC?

rockitman · Nov 24, 2017

Your definitely going deep with isolation Mike. Congrats !

Mike Lavigne · Nov 24, 2017

holy mother of god.

(apologies to all godmothers and holy mothers.....but not those other mothers).

I've put a gag order on my impressions until I get a sanity check tomorrow afternoon from a couple of friends (who are well known in these parts) who have volunteered to act as independent observers.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 24, 2017

microstrip said:
Why did you choose to use the active table under the server and not under the MSB DAC?

the plan is to try this combo in three spots; first under the SGM, then under the MSB Dac box, and then under the dart pre. currently the dart pre is presently sitting on a Stock Herzan TS-150, and the MSB Dac box is sitting on Hardpoint Trinia footers.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 24, 2017

rockitman said:
Your definitely going deep with isolation Mike. Congrats !

well; I feel responsible for at least the initial reason this product was even considered by Emile and Ed. back a year ago in November 2016, then January and March of this year, Ed visited me and observed my Herzan units and came to appreciate what they were doing. their MO of over-the-top engineering detail obsession with the SGM got triggered with the possibilities of active isolation. as they investigated it they found there was much more upside to this issue.

which got me in line to be first to sample the full meal deal here now.

if you recall; I turned you on to this a few years back too. so you, of all people, should know where I stand on this stuff.

Taiko Audio · Nov 25, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
well; I feel responsible for at least the initial reason this product was even considered by Emile and Ed.

This setup wouldn't exist without you.

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