Ears vs. Measurements

mep

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I hardly know where to begin or where to take this thread. I just finished reading a rave review of an amplifier by a very experienced reviewer. The review ended with the reviewer buying the amplifier even though the timing of the purchase was less than ideal for his finances. I'm going to have start giving some things away here, but I don't have much choice. The review was in Stereophile and JA took measurements of the amplifier. I also want to state for the record that I have heard this amp several times at shows and thought it sounded damn good. I first heard the amp at RMAF 2012 on the Nola KO speakers and I previously wrote about how smitten I was with those speakers.

The amp under review is advertised as a 75 watt per channel tube amp that uses a pair of KT-120 tubes per channel. When JA measured the amp, the amp did not meet its specified power output of 75 watts. I think that many people are under the assumption that when they buy an amplifier, the amp does meet its stated output power and does so at the distortion levels advertised. The amplifier under review could only muster 61 watts of output power into a 4 ohm load from the 4 ohm tap. The kicker is that it could only reach 61 watts into 4 ohms at 1% distortion which JA further defines as driving the amp into clipping. The output power into 8 ohms from the 4 ohm tap was only 43 watts at 1% distortion. When JA drove the amp into 3% distortion, the output power increased to 46.5 watts into 8 ohms and 70 watts into 4 ohms from the 4 ohm tap. So even if you relax the distortion levels to 3%, the amp still falls short of its advertised power output which I find surprising for a number of reasons. When the output power was measured into an 8 ohm load from the 8 ohm tap, the power came close to meeting the specified power. The amp put out 70 watts from the 8 ohm tap into an 8 ohm load, but again it was at 1% distortion.

So here's the kicker: How does an amp that measures poorly in terms of distortion for anything approaching it's specified power output sound so good? Objectivists who love many zeros after the decimal point in their distortion measurements would surely cringe. Frankly, I also have a little problem with a manufacturer saying an amplifier puts out 75 watts a channel when it doesn't and not clearly specifying the distortion levels that will be required in order to approach the rated output power. I think it's called truth in advertising. So here we have a $9K amplifier that is specified as 75 watts per channel at 0.6% THD and it really can only muster 70 watts at 3% distortion. Some of you may remember a rant I went on long ago on this forum about specifications not being measurements and there were some naysayers who didn't get what I was saying at the time. The naysayers were under the impression that specifications in the absence of measurements were just fine and surely they really were the same. Here is a classic example of why this isn't so.

I think there is only two conclusions that can be drawn here as to why this amp sounds really damn good. The first conclusion would be that you are using really efficient speakers so that the amp is never required to deliver enough power to drive it into clipping and the distortion levels stay very low (not SS low though mind you). The second conclusion is that THD is highly overrated and everything still sounds great even if you are clipping the amp. I'm personally going with the first conclusion, the amp has to be mated with high efficiency speakers so that it is never driven hard enough to clip it and raise the distortion levels to 1% let alone 3%. The clue in the review is that the reviewer turned up his system to what he considered very loud levels and the amp was only hitting 25 watts on the VU meters.

The amp in question is the ARC Reference 75 if you haven't already figured it out. The review is in the May 2013 edition of Stereophile.
 

DonH50

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It is hard to hear 1% distortion on anything except a single-tone test, and not always easy then. The second harmonic distortion from a tube amp may actually make it sound "fuller". Most people are nowhere near clipping their amps; again, more an issue decades ago when 25 W/ch was common and 50 - 100 W a big amp. And I don't know anybody who cares about a bunch of 0's in the THD spec -- I think that went out in the 70's or 80's when electronics got good enough that it didn't matter. Finally, especially with tube amps, how it sounds is highly dependent upon the speaker, efficiency and load impedance, as well as how far way the listener.

My 0.000001 cents (microcent) - Don
 

mep

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Don-I think there are people on this forum who are highly enamored with lots of zeros after the decimal point.
 

cjfrbw

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Try the Wavacs on for size. Some of the most expensive AND best sounding amps around. The original designs from Nobu Shishido can measure 5 to 10 percent THD at rated outputs. Apparently, Shishido had the philosophy that the first couple of watts is what you were hearing and the rest was overhead, anyway. Much of the distortion of single ended is below 100 Hz, but you can really see the distorted square waves from it.

My Wavacs are rated at 50w per channel by the Mfr., but if you measured them at 1 percent distortion, I suspect the number would drop to around 20-30, if that. At 4ohms, maybe 15-25 watts at 1 percent. I really like them, anyway.

You aren't relapsing into "tube itch" again, are you Mark?

Here's the distortion of the "150 watt" 833 Wavac mono block from stereophile, the 100 watt mark is only achieved at some impedances at 10 percent distortion.

WAVacFIG05.jpg

Come to think of it, the big 833 is only putting out about 1 or 2 watts at 1 percent distortion, Har Har!

I guess my baby Wavacs must only put out a fraction of a watt at 1 percent distortion, if they are comparable.
 
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mep

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You aren't relapsing into "tube itch" again, are you Mark?

Carl-I haven't closed the door on tubes forever. I just know that in my room with my speakers and the levels I like to listen to, I need real power. JA noted in his measurements that even at fairly low power output levels, the power supply in the REF 75 was being stressed. The REF 75 only weighs 46 lbs which is pretty damn light for a tube amp rated at 75 watts per channel. The REF 110 that the REF 75 replaced weighs considerably more and I suspect the power transformer is beefier in the REF 110 (and I'm sure the output transformers are bigger as well). The energy storage in both amps is the same however.

But the points you are making with regards to sound quality and high distortion are part of what prompted me to start this thread. Do tube amps sound great in spite of their distortion or because of it? I do know one thing, I don't want to have an amp that I will routinely drive into clipping. That is not something I worry about with my KSA-250. It always sounds like it is loafing along no matter how loud I play it. I like that quality. And of course none of that would matter if I didn't like how it sounded.
 

microstrip

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(...) I just know that in my room with my speakers and the levels I like to listen to, I need real power.

Mep,

You said it all - the room, the speakers and the levels.

About tubes: I have owned Sonus Faber Extrema's. One of the most difficult speakers to drive I have ever seen. Your KSA250 was one of the few amplifiers that could drive them properly. Some 1000W monoblocks and many other very powerful amplifiers did not manage them to sound powerful. Curiously a pair of pentode monoblocks having 55W each also could drive them perfectly, but surely not to the scattering levels of the Krell.
 

microstrip

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Beautiful. I think all audiophiles have a reserve system in their subconscious - something like what if some one makes you an irrecusable offer on your system and tomorrow you will need to buy a completely new system or you found a old genius lamp and a cloth. Mine would be an all Zandem system the 2000, 5000 , 3000 and 9600 - although I never listened to a Zandem system !
 

cjfrbw

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Do tube amps sound great in spite of their distortion or because of it? I do know one thing, I don't want to have an amp that I will routinely drive into clipping. That is not something I worry about with my KSA-250. It always sounds like it is loafing along no matter how loud I play it. I like that quality. And of course none of that would matter if I didn't like how it sounded.

I tend to buy the theory that SET amps distort in a way that is compatible with the distortion created by the ear pinna and canal itself. The brain apparatus is apparently coded to filter and interpret these distortions in a kind of reverse transcription, so an amplifier that imitates them is, in a sense, going to sound more natural and give the brain a "head start" in decoding the signal. To me, SET amps sound completely open and linear with a kind of boundless imaging and rich tonality.

I have never heard of any metric that measures the ability of an amplifier (or any audio component) to "image" since that is strictly a function of the way the brain decodes and interprets the sound. I have never even heard of any measurement other than purely subjective that defines or describes this capability. There is nothing on an amplifier spec sheet that lists the imaging capability of the amplifier.

Some talk about signal timing, phase integrity etc. etc. but none of those things really describe how a component actually throws an image that is deeper, wider, higher, bigger etc without actually listening to it.

These are just my addled opinions, because I don't find any scientific sufficiency to explain them.
 

GaryProtein

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It is hard to hear 1% distortion on anything except a single-tone test, and not always easy then. The second harmonic distortion from a tube amp may actually make it sound "fuller". Most people are nowhere near clipping their amps; again, more an issue decades ago when 25 W/ch was common and 50 - 100 W a big amp. And I don't know anybody who cares about a bunch of 0's in the THD spec -- I think that went out in the 70's or 80's when electronics got good enough that it didn't matter. Finally, especially with tube amps, how it sounds is highly dependent upon the speaker, efficiency and load impedance, as well as how far way the listener.

My 0.000001 cents (microcent) - Don

I basically agree with Don. The point he didn't mention was that the amplifier did NOT meet its specs for power output. To me, not doing that constitutes an out and out LIE on the part of the manufacturer and the unit should meet power specs at a respectably low distortion.

Would you want a car that rode smoothly down the neighborhood street your house was on but was advertized at 300 HP and only made 200 HP and vibrated enough to rattle your teeth when you stepped on the gas when the light turned green?
 

amirm

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We don't hear distortion percentages :). Single number values like THD have little association with audibility. Early harmonics for example are much less audible than later ones yet THD measurement accounts equally for all.
 

KlausR.

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Dec 13, 2010
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mep said:
I think there is only two conclusions that can be drawn here as to why this amp sounds really damn good. The first conclusion would be that you are using really efficient speakers so that the amp is never required to deliver enough power to drive it into clipping and the distortion levels stay very low (not SS low though mind you). The second conclusion is that THD is highly overrated and everything still sounds great even if you are clipping the amp.

As far THD as useful, or better useless, metric is concerned, check out these:

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Distortion_AES_I.pdf
http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Distortion_AES_II.pdf

and

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/THD_.pdf
http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Comments on howard.pdf


As far as perception thresholds are concerned, according to Vanderkooy with music the threshold for harmonic distortion is 5-10%, according to Klippel the threshold for intermodulation distortion depends on the signal and can be up to 30% and more.

Klippel, “Speaker auralization – subjective evaluation of nonlinear distortion”, AES preprint 5310 (2001)
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9919


Vanderkooy, „Another view of distortion perception“, Convention e-brief, 133rd convention of the Audio Engineering Society 2012
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16631

Klaus
 

LL21

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Beautiful. I think all audiophiles have a reserve system in their subconscious - something like what if some one makes you an irrecusable offer on your system and tomorrow you will need to buy a completely new system or you found a old genius lamp and a cloth. Mine would be an all Zandem system the 2000, 5000 , 3000 and 9600 - although I never listened to a Zandem system !

I never knew that Microstrip! I have heard incredible things about all Zanden systems and have spoken extensively with someone who owns one...and has owned it consecutively for about 10 years...which in this hobby is an eternity relative to the average. As you well know, i am a big fan of the Zanden digital front-end you mention and enjoy mine every day...i once thought about using their monos on the X1s but love the Gyrphon so no desire to change.

The question is what speakers would you run with an all Zanden system? I would think the SonusFaber would require more? Given the Zanden voice, I would be tempted to try a Q7 based on reports from people i know who have heard the 9600s driving the Q7s. I originally thought 2 sets of 9600s might be required...but was told specifically the 9600 handled the Q7 exceedingly well.
 

LL21

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I just put the Boulder and CAT for sale today , i must also love distortion plus i am downsizing my system too much amps :D


_DSC0337 by andromeda61, on Flickr

Good luck with the sales...and you have a fantastic amplifier there i am sure. I have not heard it myself, but have long been a fan of Zanden as you know.
 

andromedaaudio

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Thanks , it was a hard decision though i also quite like the boulder and cat, but having 2 quality components standing in the corner is a bit of a shame .
The zanden is more open ,transparent " live " more room fill .
Tonally they are quite the same , the set is a tad faster it seems , i fired it up last week after having had the boulder in the system for quit some time and it surprises me every time again
My next project will be even more easy to drive so no problem there i suspect , even though it ll have a large bassunit .
The 7000 or 7300 incarnation is no longer made , probably because there are not enough speakermatches on the market therefore a bit limited

Zanden also made a 300 B monoblock series .
 

LL21

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Thanks , it was a hard decision though i also quite like the boulder and cat, but having 2 quality components standing in the corner is a bit of a shame .
The zanden is more open ,transparent " live " more room fill .
Tonally they are quite the same , the set is a tad faster it seems , i fired it up last week after having had the boulder in the system for quit some time and it surprises me every time again
My next project will be even more easy to drive so no problem there i suspect , even though it ll have a large bassunit .
The 7000 or 7300 incarnation is no longer made , probably because there are not enough speakermatches on the market therefore a bit limited

Zanden also made a 300 B monoblock series .
I am curious...how do you compare the various Zanden amps you have heard? I have never heard myself so most curious!
 

andromedaaudio

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very open /transparent sound and very refined , i think i cant explain my self more , i guess you have to hear it yourself whether you like it our not.
Same goes for the 9600 and 9500 series , i also heard the 9500 with KR tubes , great sound
 

defride

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Beautiful. I think all audiophiles have a reserve system in their subconscious - something like what if some one makes you an irrecusable offer on your system and tomorrow you will need to buy a completely new system or you found a old genius lamp and a cloth. Mine would be an all Zandem system the 2000, 5000 , 3000 and 9600 - although I never listened to a Zandem system !

I heard this system or very close to it driving Avalon Ascendent at a UK show a few years ago, the distributor had taken a number of rooms and I had this modestly sized one to myself for a while. I'd characterize the sound for this system as one of great clarity but on the lighter side almost to the point of being dry and as a result less engaging than I would have expected. Having heard the speakers a number of times I suspect the lighter touch was a characteristic of the speakers.

I never knew that Microstrip! I have heard incredible things about all Zanden systems and have spoken extensively with someone who owns one...and has owned it consecutively for about 10 years...which in this hobby is an eternity relative to the average. As you well know, i am a big fan of the Zanden digital front-end you mention and enjoy mine every day...i once thought about using their monos on the X1s but love the Gyrphon so no desire to change.

The question is what speakers would you run with an all Zanden system? I would think the SonusFaber would require more? Given the Zanden voice, I would be tempted to try a Q7 based on reports from people i know who have heard the 9600s driving the Q7s. I originally thought 2 sets of 9600s might be required...but was told specifically the 9600 handled the Q7 exceedingly well.

At another UK show I heard the 9600 driving Finite Elemente speakers, source was the single box Zanden, I don't remember the pre, most likely Zanden but it may have been CJ. Du Pre's Elgar cello was magnificent, I remember the experience being as close to 'seeing' Du Pre sat 6 ft in front delivering the energy with which she is renowned. I have yet to hear an interpretation quite like it again and it has stuck in the memory. The Zanden electronics can clearly deliver in a way that the Zanden/Avalon system I had heard previously didn't. It wasn't a total success, when the source material moved to something more upbeat, iirc Richard Hawley from Coles Corner or something akin the sound was a little laid back for my taste. I had read a Roy Gregory review of the Zanden single box cdp and remember he'd commented on a slightly laid back presentation.

The single box cdp had only just been released when I heard it in the system with Finite Elemente speakers and I heard it a couple of years or so later in combination with Karan and Avalon where blasting Frankie Goes to Hollywood at high volume was a hoot and far from laidback!
 

andromedaaudio

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When my project is finished later this year i might go and ask a amsterdam dealer which i know to do a introduction together with a magazine review follow up , he has all zandensystems , and more .:D Octave jubilee monos also great stuff

Plus a Studer A 80 and some ultraanalogue tape recordings would be cool , try to maximize transparency
 
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LL21

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I heard this system or very close to it driving Avalon Ascendent at a UK show a few years ago, the distributor had taken a number of rooms and I had this modestly sized one to myself for a while. I'd characterize the sound for this system as one of great clarity but on the lighter side almost to the point of being dry and as a result less engaging than I would have expected. Having heard the speakers a number of times I suspect the lighter touch was a characteristic of the speakers.



At another UK show I heard the 9600 driving Finite Elemente speakers, source was the single box Zanden, I don't remember the pre, most likely Zanden but it may have been CJ. Du Pre's Elgar cello was magnificent, I remember the experience being as close to 'seeing' Du Pre sat 6 ft in front delivering the energy with which she is renowned. I have yet to hear an interpretation quite like it again and it has stuck in the memory. The Zanden electronics can clearly deliver in a way that the Zanden/Avalon system I had heard previously didn't. It wasn't a total success, when the source material moved to something more upbeat, iirc Richard Hawley from Coles Corner or something akin the sound was a little laid back for my taste. I had read a Roy Gregory review of the Zanden single box cdp and remember he'd commented on a slightly laid back presentation.

The single box cdp had only just been released when I heard it in the system with Finite Elemente speakers and I heard it a couple of years or so later in combination with Karan and Avalon where blasting Frankie Goes to Hollywood at high volume was a hoot and far from laidback!

very open /transparent sound and very refined , i think i cant explain my self more , i guess you have to hear it yourself whether you like it our not.
Same goes for the 9600 and 9500 series , i also heard the 9500 with KR tubes , great sound

Thanks for the insights! Very interesting. I may try to contact a Zanden dealer to hear...most curious.
 

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