HRS M3X Isolation base

MylesBAstor · Apr 10, 2013

rockitman said:
I'm on solid concrete and I can jump all day without affecting the turntable. Aren't the vibraplanes about eliminating that and also (more importantly) airborne vibration and in our case vibration caused by the music playing ? Passive isolation cannot deal with that can it ?
You definitely need one under your AF1 Jack....

One can still make an argument that air is still a coupler and you need something to really absorb and dissipate vibrations. Then there's the question of what frequencies need to isolate, and whether you're addressing energy entering the system, leaving the system or picked up by the system.

kleinbje · Apr 10, 2013

One vote for SRA, I just installed a scuttle which was expensive and a pain in the ass getting up two flights of stairs(4*2 version), but I was pleasantly blown away by the the results. The back ground is way blacker, the separation of the instruments markedly improved. I was a bit nervous I would have some serious buyers remorse, as if I has bought in to snake oil or something, but it was a dramatic system changing improvement. Couldn't be happier.

Steve Williams · Apr 10, 2013

JackD201 said:
The airborne vibrations is more about quickly converting the energy to heat. I'm not too familiar with the top plate of the vibraplane but if I'm mistaken it is a solid aluminum plate. Aluminum has great damping but it can still ring by iteslf. Usually you want something softer or something hard with a damping layer or a material with specific damping properties like acrylics with particular grains. So far the best I've ever heard use combinations of materials for constrained layer damping same way your table uses aluminum, acrylic and panzerwood which itself is a combination of woods with different densities. Same goes for the best footers like the Stillpoints (aluminum/ceramic), Symposium (aluminum/tungsten), Magico Pods (aluminum/polymer), Walker (Brass/Polymer), RiZE (Aluminum/Polymer/Titanium) etc.

I often see electron microscopes referenced and it is really hard to argue with that so I won't. It just makes me wonder about what the differences are in the environments an electron microscope is used and that of an audio environment. I mean I don't think EMs are used in places where it would be subjected to the levels of airborne vibration like that you would find in a listening room with music playing. Most labs are pretty quiet. The isolation I would assume would be engineered more towards very low frequency seismic and other ground borne vibrations. I have no doubt a vibraplane would do an excellent job. I just wonder if it is as good at audio as it is for what it was originally designed for. I'm not curious enough to find out for myself.

Not sure I agree because electron microscopes are moving in tiny micron or less motions so any vibration would be counterproductive

Orb · Apr 11, 2013

Why not build a system using same setup as telescopes

Can be done cheapish for individual components, or massively expensive that also looks at the foundation/infrastructure as in the large scale institution/national observatory ones.

Amazingly never thought of that until now and this thread lol, might try some of the medium priced ones myself.
Cheers
Orb

MylesBAstor · Apr 11, 2013

Steve Williams said:
Not sure I agree because electron microscopes are moving in tiny micron or less motions so any vibration would be counterproductive

Absolutely and sensitive to VLFs.

MylesBAstor · Apr 11, 2013

Orb said:
Why not build a system using same setup as telescopes
Can be done cheapish for individual components, or massively expensive that also looks at the foundation/infrastructure as in the large scale institution/national observatory ones.

Amazingly never thought of that until now and this thread lol, might try some of the medium priced ones myself.
Cheers
Orb

There are a few manufacturers such as Transparent and SRA that have built suspended foundations into their custom designed rooms.

Orb · Apr 11, 2013

Thats interesting Myles,
did they ever discuss who they used for the design/implementation?
Just curious.
Cheers
Orb

JackD201 · Apr 11, 2013

Steve Williams said:
Not sure I agree because electron microscopes are moving in tiny micron or less motions so any vibration would be counterproductive

I'm very sure we agree on the floor borne vibrations. I'm just questioning the air borne vibrations such devices are usually exposed to.

Mike Lavigne · Apr 11, 2013

JackD201 said:
The airborne vibrations is more about quickly converting the energy to heat. I'm not too familiar with the top plate of the vibraplane but if I'm mistaken it is a solid aluminum plate. Aluminum has great damping but it can still ring by iteslf. Usually you want something softer or something hard with a damping layer or a material with specific damping properties like acrylics with particular grains. So far the best I've ever heard use combinations of materials for constrained layer damping same way your table uses aluminum, acrylic and panzerwood which itself is a combination of woods with different densities. Same goes for the best footers like the Stillpoints (aluminum/ceramic), Symposium (aluminum/tungsten), Magico Pods (aluminum/polymer), Walker (Brass/Polymer), RiZE (Aluminum/Polymer/Titanium) etc.

I often see electron microscopes referenced and it is really hard to argue with that so I won't. It just makes me wonder about what the differences are in the environments an electron microscope is used and that of an audio environment. I mean I don't think EMs are used in places where it would be subjected to the levels of airborne vibration like that you would find in a listening room with music playing. Most labs are pretty quiet. The isolation I would assume would be engineered more towards very low frequency seismic and other ground borne vibrations. I have no doubt a vibraplane would do an excellent job. I just wonder if it is as good at audio as it is for what it was originally designed for. I'm not curious enough to find out for myself.

this is current state of the art for isolating electron microscopes;

http://www.herzan.com/products/active-vibration-control/ts-series.html

Vibraplanes and any air bladder isolation was state of the art in the 90's. they have limitations. they are passive isolators with active leveling.

here are tutorials for determining isolation needs for industry; including electron microscopes.

pay attention particularly to the 'active verses passive' tutorial. the HRS is passive.

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials.html

if you read thru the whole thing it's quite the same as audio. the ideal is basement of a building built on a good hard bedrock, then with a grounded rack, and active isolation like one of the TS Series isolation shelves above.

and you will typically find research labs will have their most important measurment intruments in a basement lab for just these type reasons.

i've heard the Halcyonic version of active isolation in my system which is not quite as advanced as the above referenced TS series. it's a revelation properly used.

microstrip · Apr 11, 2013

There is a fundamental difference between electron microscopes and turntables - the former is a an almost static device during operation and the second is a dynamic system. The intrinsic movements of the playing turntable generate energy and this energy must be dragged to some place other than the LP surface and needle. Every designer has a strategy to dissipate this type of energy - and the way he chooses to do it will determinate the interaction with the vibraplane or equivalent type of suspension. A rotating turntable will probably generate some kind of movement around 1.8 and 3.6 Hz - the resonance zone of most of these devices.

IMHO if anyone is thinking about buying an isolating device for a turntable he should consult with the turntable designer.

I have owned an active Vibraplane - it had a great effect on my Forsell air bearing CD transport. I sold it mainly because it was too heavy and I almost seriously hurt my back while manipulating it!

MylesBAstor · Apr 11, 2013

Mike Lavigne said:
this is current state of the art for isolating electron microscopes;

http://www.herzan.com/products/active-vibration-control/ts-series.html

Vibraplanes and any air bladder isolation was state of the art in the 90's. they have limitations. they are passive isolators with active leveling.

here are tutorials for determining isolation needs for industry; including electron microscopes.

pay attention particularly to the 'active verses passive' tutorial. the HRS is passive.

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials.html

if you read thru the whole thing it's quite the same as audio. the ideal is basement of a building built on a good hard bedrock, then with a grounded rack, and active isolation like one of the TS Series isolation shelves above.

and you will typically find research labs will have their most important measurment intruments in a basement lab for just these type reasons.

i've heard the Halcyonic version of active isolation in my system which is not quite as advanced as the above referenced TS series. it's a revelation properly used.

Mike:

We had a member a while back who worked for a company that made these isolation devices. Somewhere on WBF is his post where he went into some length describing differences between active and passive, etc.

Mike Lavigne · Apr 11, 2013

MylesBAstor said:
Mike:

We had a member a while back who worked for a company that made these isolation devices. Somewhere on WBF is his post where he went into some length describing differences between active and passive, etc.

Reid Whitney.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-use-for-vibration-isolation&highlight=herzan

yes, and i had an email exchange with him too.

Vibraplanes are passive, with active leveling. passive is passive. it sits there.

microstrip · Apr 11, 2013

Finite Elemente manufactures audio racks using active isolation devices. They use piezoceramic elements to cancel the vibrations. Unfortunately they will also cancel your wallet content ...

http://www.finite-elemente.de/en/racks/pagode_emperor/active_vibe_control

Frank750 · Apr 11, 2013

microstrip said:
Finite Elemente manufactures audio racks using active isolation devices. They use piezoceramic elements to cancel the vibrations. Unfortunately they will also cancel your wallet content ...

http://www.finite-elemente.de/en/racks/pagode_emperor/active_vibe_control

I thought they went out of business a few months back?

rockitman · Apr 11, 2013

Mike Lavigne said:
this is current state of the art for isolating electron microscopes;

http://www.herzan.com/products/active-vibration-control/ts-series.html

.

do you have any idea how much these babies go for ?

rockitman · Apr 11, 2013

rockitman said:
do you have any idea how much these babies go for ?

looks like I am giving Herzan a call. The TS 140 is what I need. What I like other than the apparent superior isolation performance is one box, no compressor, and no minimum load requirements. No need to get the addition ballast weight that you need for the Vibraplanes to get at a minimum load. I'm betting these things are $7-$10k....

Frank750 · Apr 11, 2013

Has anyone tried a Silent Running Audio Ohio+ base under a turntable?

MylesBAstor · Apr 11, 2013

rockitman said:
looks like I am giving Herzan a call. The TS 140 is what I need. What I like other than the apparent superior isolation performance is one box, no compressor, and no minimum load requirements. No need to get the addition ballast weight that you need for the Vibraplanes to get at a minimum load. I'm betting these things are $7-$10k....

Group buy!

Mike Lavigne · Apr 11, 2013

rockitman said:
looks like I am giving Herzan a call. The TS 140 is what I need. What I like other than the apparent superior isolation performance is one box, no compressor, and no minimum load requirements. No need to get the addition ballast weight that you need for the Vibraplanes to get at a minimum load. I'm betting these things are $7-$10k....

approx $11k-$13k. it depends on the footprint of the gear you want on it. it's simple to use, just plug it in, it levels itself and you are good to go.

and your Adona with the heavy granite top is the perfect type of rack to use the TS series with. this is one reason i wanted a grounded rack instead of a de-coupled rack, at some point i was going to go this direction. the other time i tried the Halyconics active shelf i was using the Grand Prix Audio Monaco which was much less than ideal.....and it still blew my mind.

i do agree with Micro as far as the fact that no one approach is perfect for every application. but i disagree that the designer will always know what works best. only your personal ears can tell you that information. sometimes designers are pig headed and not open to things.

good luck.

MylesBAstor · Apr 11, 2013

Frank750 said:
Has anyone tried a Silent Running Audio Ohio+ base under a turntable?

I use the VR Isobase under my VPI table in a Craz rack.

HRS M3X Isolation base

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

WBF Founding Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

VIP/Donor

VIP/Donor

Member Sponsor

Member Sponsor

VIP/Donor

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads